Episode 133 | How property search patterns have changed during Covid-19 | Alice Stolz, Domain

Covid-19 has brought the focus back to the home front and what people are searching for in their new home/upgrade.

In this episode we go into a deep dive on Domain’s data around changing consumer search patterns with Alice Stolz. Alice is the Managing Editor at Domain and host of Domain's new podcast ‘Property Unpacked’. We discuss why there has been a significant search increase for ‘home office/study, how the work from home movement has unlocked labor mobility and the current transaction rate and what it means.

Here’s what we covered:

• What are some of the biggest changes in search data?

• What areas are people searching for now?

• Has preference in terms of house facilities shifted?

• Which keyword has soared in search data?

• What makes a great suburb?

• Will those suburbs most liveable stay the most liveable in the future?

• Has there been a spike in transactions?

• Why has the Canberra market stood strong during Covid?

• How to interpret clearance rates.

This weeks Dumbo:

• Why you must have an agreed 'final number'?

RELEVANT EPISODES:
Suburb Trends July, 2020.
Episode 115 | Eliza Owen
Episode 132 | Mark McCrindle

GUEST LINKS:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/domain-com-au/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/domain.com.au

DOMAIN ARTICLES:
The regional NSW suburbs where home searches surged during lockdown
Snow region house searches surge as locked-down Victorians dream of a winter escape
Interstate searches for property skyrocket during coronavirus lockdown, new data shows
Interest from Chinese property investors has declined and is likely to remain subdued

HOST LINKS:
Looking for a Sydney Buyers Agent? www.gooddeeds.com.au
Work with Veronica: https://linktr.ee/veronicamorgan

Looking for a Mortgage Broker? www.wealthful.com.au
Work with Chris: hello@wealthful.com.au

Send in your questions to: questions@theelephantintheroom.com.au

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: 
Please note that this has been transcribed by half-human-half-robot, so brace yourself for typos and the odd bit of weirdness…
This episode was recorded on July, 2020.

Veronica Morgan:

It seems as a bit of a migration happening at the moment. City real estate agents are reporting that inquiries from overseas are increasing. Regional agents are reporting that inquiries from a major cities are on the up. The demographic of tree and sea changes is changing and actually has been for the last few years, no longer the province solely of retirees, millennials in particular are leaving our cities. They're being driven out by unaffordability the promise of a slower pace, more downtime, enjoying nature, and a newly proven ability to work remotely. But is this a COVID-19 urban myth? How do we know for sure that it's really happening?

Veronica Morgan:

Welcome to the elephant in the room. This is the podcast where we love to talk about the big things in property that never usually get talked about. I'm Veronica Morgan, real estate agent buyer's agent cohost of Foxtel's location, location, location, Australia, and author of auction ready.

Chris Bates:

And I'm Chris Bates mortgage broker. Before we get started, I need to let you know that nothing we say on here can be taken as personal advice. We always recommend you engage the services of a professional

Veronica Morgan:

Online search behavior is very telling. And today we're going to get some Intel from Alice Stoltz, domain's managing editor and host of domains, new podcast, property unpacked. With over 20 years, working in the media industry, Alice is passionate about helping us giants make sense of the property market and is a regular domain judge on the block. Alice is joining us today to discuss search behavior and the time of COVID. And what has been revealed about where buyers are searching today? Why tree changing semi tree chains? I send you one on the CDs age are trends and what makes a location score well on livability? Thank you so much for joining us. Alice.

Alice Stolz:

It's a pleasure to be here.

Chris Bates:

Hi, Alice. Nice to meet you. I guess the first thing I'd love to chat about is what kind of, what Veronica alluded to in the intro, just search data. I think it's almost the Holy grail of data that you'd want to see with property. What some of the big things you've seen change over this kind of covert period and from what I've seen, the search data seems to be on the up dramatically.

Alice Stolz:

It is, it is Chris Ellis. We've really, it's a great way to have your finger on the pulse of what Australians are thinking and dreaming about for their future. And that domain was an enormous shift away from searches with traditional hotspots of Metro cities, to people looking further afield and going regional. So the idea of a tree change or a sea change has never been more palatable, I think, to many Australians. And we're particularly seeing it in Melbourne and Sydney where there's a lot of white collar professionals, obviously who are, or have been forced to work from home. Then I thinking I could do my job From anywhere. I don't have to be bound to being near the train station that has, you know, for years taken me to the city to do my job every day.

Chris Bates:

And with your search data, do you have like an IP address on the person searching that like search? So do you know where they're from? Like, and then that can kind of link that and say, well, you know, in the inner ring of Sydney, these people are searching for this. Or is it more just broad sort of aggregate data that you generally see?

Alice Stolz:

I'd have to ask a tech wizards, but it's what I understand. It's more sort of broad aggregate data, but when we do have memberships on people, we can sort of understand where they're living and what, and what they are searching for and how that search is evolving. So, you know, we know that demand has traditionally been up for example, in, in the NRAS of Melbourne for many years. And now that is expanding out further a field to areas that hadn't normally been popping up before and particularly before COVID heat. So we can sort of follow those migration patterns around and conversely in areas like WOA in that there is more search activity in the cities of, of Perth and that there what there has been regionally. So it's really interesting depending on what state you look at around the country at the moment.

Chris Bates:

As has out kind of search, obviously location is only part of the property journey the actual preference in terms of the property and bedrooms, et cetera, has that shifted as well. Have you noticed a big change from, you know, people looking for full beds, let's say it in three beds or has that data not really been found out yet?

Alice Stolz:

No, we do have that data and this is what I find just absolutely reverting. That's been a massive spike in keyword searches for home office, particularly in new South Wales, Victoria and Canberra, and that's April or may compare with in March. So you can set it as we've sort of gone through this journey. It's getting more and more, Oh my gosh, I really need that standalone home office now. And Victoria home office keyword searches Rose 830% in April and may compared to February, March 30%. And I wonder also is that because Victoria has had tougher lockdown laws, that's a lot, it was a lot higher than what Sydney was and higher than camera also. And we also saw that surprising, we sort of fall in home office keyword searches in Queensland and South Australia and Tasmania. And in those States, there's actually a rise in retreat that people wanted to sort of say, where can I escape to, you know, that they didn't, they were daydreaming about getting away from their home.

Alice Stolz:

They may have enough space now, but I just find it absolutely intriguing that I do think that idea that w you know, for many years, we've shunned having a home office and people wanting to have bigger, open plan living spaces. And now we're definitely seeing more demand for people wanting to carve out that area of a house. It does sort of inoculate them from the rest of their residents.

Veronica Morgan:

What's so interesting is how immediate this has been. And I know obviously being locked in your home and having to work from home and the kids school from home and all that sort of pressure really, there's nothing like it to, to really put the spotlight a spotlight on your home being too small, if it's, if it is too small, but how quickly people have said, right, I'm going to start looking elsewhere. So the level of dissatisfaction in their lives must actually be quite high.

Alice Stolz:

And I think it also, it shows sort of the agility of many Australians to think, you know, what I've done with that. Now I am going to make a move or have an option of having a move. And we're also such a lucky country that we can do that, you know, like just this morning, I've just drove 70, K's back from the Mornington peninsula to red Hill, where I might just drop my children 1//off for a couple of days. And I was back in an hour back to my house in inner Melbourne. And that's pretty extraordinary to think that that's, that's possible, don't you think? And, and there was, there was peak hour traffic in that, but I think that many people are actually thinking I can ask split my time between living, you know, 60 Ks away. And we're definitely seeing a rise in people's interest in sort of that having a bit of acreage outside the city, like whether it be a hobby farm or something, but a commutable acreage.

Alice Stolz:

Whereas I think once upon a time, those drives used to be four hours away or something, thanks to great infrastructure, particularly Melbourne and Sydney. We do have those little hotspots just around the inner city that are not too far away.

Veronica Morgan:

It's actually interesting because the show that I was cohost of I'm on Fox Hill relocation, relocation, that was the first series. And then we did three of location, location, location, Australia, but relocation relocation. The premise of that was that couples would come along and they wanted to do a sort of a commute sea change, tree change, but also have an open home because they were going to split their living and they were work and commute and, and partly worked for home, et cetera, et cetera. And it was based on the UK show where cities are closer together. And I think the roads are probably a bit better too. Um but the actual distance, the tyranny of distance doesn't exist in the UK. And at the outset of that show, I was like going, I will eat my hat. If anybody actually does end up buying two properties. Now nobody really fit the exact profile, but we did have two couples have bought two properties by the way, but, but it was, seemed so ridiculously pie in the sky then, but all of a sudden now it's like that actually is something that's, that's high on the agenda.

Alice Stolz:

Isn't that incredible sort of how, how ahead of your time that show obviously was now and now we're just seeing such an increasing desire for people to do that. And I think because our expectations for having a better quality of life, just keep continuing to rise, and we do have that sense of, we do want to have it all, do you want, I mean, we do want our children to have, I don't know, a paddock to play or something, and we do want to be able to have a great career and a great job and be connected to our colleagues, but we're sort of saying, but you know what, only a couple of days a week, we'll actually be fine for that rather than having to be chained to that office desk all the time.

Alice Stolz:

And I think that, that, COVID one of the good things to come out of Kobe is that we have just learned that you really can work from anywhere at the moment. And I think officers have been forced employers to really accept that reality, knowing there's been really very little different productivity thus far for many businesses.

Veronica Morgan:

So where's there a radius where the search, these, these sort of tea tree and see change searches. Is there a radius where they stop a radius around the city? They know what I mean?

Alice Stolz:

Yeah. I think, look, when we talk about this sort of commercial acreage, that really is three 30 K plus suburbs from Melbourne and Sydney, which looked for some people would actually argue, that's not, that's just really the outer suburbs of those big cities. You know what I mean? But there's definitely, I think people like that sweet spot to sort of be under two hours back to the city, but I really wonder will that, will we now push that boundary further knowing the work from home is becoming more available basically. Whereas I think a year ago it was definitely under two hours Rose. I think now, as I said, people can have more flexible in the days that they can do that. And obviously the further away you go, usually the better the location is. And often the more affordabilities because it's all well and good to say, I want to be an hour and a half from, from a Metro city, but you usually will come with a hefty price tag to pay for that sort of luxury of not being too far away.

Veronica Morgan:

That's the problem, isn't it? That, that as the migration happens, those closer those areas closer in are going to get unaffordable as well. And also, you know, you've got to look at infrastructure. I mean, I was reading an article recently where basically a millennial, When they're moving out of the cities, you know, they want, they want good schools. They want a university and they want a hospital And coffee. So they're, there's sort of like the four things, are they, you know, I guess, heading into your livability or the work that demands that on livability, what is it that makes a great suburb or a great area?

Alice Stolz:

Well, we know there's definitely more to our suburbs and just property prices. And I think for some of us to continue to function as they house and accommodate more and more people, they need to be very livable. And basically we did a study a very comprehensive study with Deloitte, where we looked at all the factors that make, make the measure livability. And we looked at things like caffeine restaurants, access to trains buses, or ferries employment, open spaces, tree cover, primary and secondary schools. And even mobile and internet access is obviously a big part of that. Like all the juicy stuff that makes it such a magical place to be.

Alice Stolz:

But I do also wonder, will that now evolve further, if we do change the way we live, like, you know, it is public transport going to be as key if people aren't commuting to the city. I mean, personally, I think it will be, but, but maybe that will evolve more than what we ever expected it to. You know, when we started thinking about livability originally, because you're right, Veronica, I think people are so demanding on what they want. And rightly so from the areas they live in, people want to have access to fantastic schools around the, they don't want to have to cross town to go to the best hospital in the city that they live in. And they want to have a beautiful open space nearby because they probably haven't got a quarter acre block anymore with a big, beautiful garden. So they want to be able to have a lovely park across the road from their house that they can really live in and much more of that sort of European lifestyle living in smaller houses, but having more space to spread out as a community.

Chris Bates:

So I think you've done the livability thing for a couple of years now, correct me if I'm wrong. Do you imagine though, that over time there's going to be a dramatic shift in what's Liverpool today to what's going to be the best of ability suburbs in the future because you know, a lot of those factors are kind of set in stone in terms of distance commute, et cetera. They can change a little bit, but you know, tree coverts, it's not like in a dramatically change overnight. So do you say what's livable today? Would most likely still be the most liberal suburbs in the future?

Alice Stolz:

It's such a good question. I think it is constantly evolving. There are always the traditional players who are in those top 10 lists. But in, in Victoria last year we had a new entrance, which was Footscray in the inner West of Melbourne. And that was a new contender. And, and what had kept Footscray out for many years was the crime was high cafes and restaurants. Weren't great. Schools were a bit of a sort of, not so amazing, but the community has really sort of voted with its fate on those areas and, and changed. What, what makes that suburb wonderful. Like it's got many layers of texture and richness now. And, you know, I think, I think at some stage it had the best smashed avocado in Melbourne and it's got all the things that sort of hero those areas and make them wonderful. And it is little things like having a beautiful artist artists and all florist or something down the road that makes people think, gosh, there's a lot of care and loving this area.

Alice Stolz:

I want to keep investing in it and make it make the community great. So I, I think there's always going to be sort of placeholder suburbs in there, you know Mosman in Sydney and darling point 11 to Bay in Sydney and that sort of stuff. But we are saying usually there's a sprinkling of new entrance each year. And I do think that we'll continue to evolve as, as communities become stronger and richer and more demanding on government to make the area better.

Veronica Morgan:

It's interesting that you guys talk about, you know, the, the stalwarts, you know, the most wins and the dialing points and because in reality, they are livable, but only for a certain type of person and with a certain income or a certain well factor, right. Most people aren't going to find those areas livable because they're going to feel like a fish out of water. Um so, so what, how do you determine, I guess, livability in a broader sense, because diversity, for instance, you know, where I live, it's quite a much more diverse area, you know, and I would hate to live in Mosman for instance. How do you, how do you sort of work it out so that you get a school that does accurately reflect that, that spread of demand?

Alice Stolz:

So what we do is we've got those 16 factors that we measure it on. And I think the ones that are real heroes across the board, like, you know, things like crime to density of cultural services, to topographic variation, that sort of stuff, and coastal proximity and that sort of stuff. So there are things that you cannot change and that's why the heroes are usually always the hero because unless something changes dramatically they will always be there, but Veronica you're right.

Alice Stolz:

Like, you know, East Melbourne, for example, has been the number one suburb a few years ago in Melbourne and it's famously doesn't even have a milk bar, you know, and you can say, well, how is it livable when it's got that? But I think it just hits it out of the park when it comes to transport sporting, it's the sporting precinct of Melbourne you know, beautiful Parkland and the grain outweighs the, the, the buildings by a massive amount and you can walk to the city and that sort of stuff. So look, I think a lot of it is about people who are interested in the ability really need to go and live in that suburb for a weekend and just explore it and really feel like what it walks feels like to walk to the train station, go to the local cafe and get up and go to coffee and go and lie on the grass and read the Sydney morning Herald and see how it feels to actually be there and be in that area because it's always going to come down to personal preference and what's livable for me might not be for you.

Alice Stolz:

And I think, and I think our appetite for that also evolves over time. You know, if you've got young children's score is obviously key. If you are working in the city, you want to have an amazing commute to work if you are working in that CBD. So I think that will also evolve of what people, what people want from the ability.

Chris Bates:

I think what I love it the most and why I think it's a really interesting study is that it actually uses lots of different factors. Like you could say, like it's a great place to invest in X suburb because it's got good schools and great connectivity to the city, but it may be lacking in crime or commute, et cetera. You know, a lot of people look at the positives of suburbs, but they don't really think about what's this suburb lacking. And I think, you know, when you look at all these different factors, you could say, well, what's holding back. This suburb is X. If that changed, would the suburb become much more livable over time? That's generally going to be good for prices. So I think you can really, you know, kind of dig a bit deeper, but just looking at, you know, a lots of different factors in what drives us suffer. Right.

Alice Stolz:

And I think also what the expectations are, what people want. Like I know we added walkability as a factor and I think the ability is now huge, isn't it? You know, I can't remember when, when do we start thinking about 10,000 steps a day, but it wasn't that long ago. It wasn't. And I think when things like that come in our demand for that is really, really rises and where we suddenly demand walkability, but also walkability that's actually somewhere lovely and not walking next to a main road where there's buses Parrameta right in Sydney, for example, whizzing paths. It's not exactly a lovely walking environment, for example, too many Hills. That's exactly right. So I think that, I think it will keep changing. And that's what I kind of love about livability. I think it is reflective of the time that we're living in.

Chris Bates:

I think walkability is a huge One actually, cause you know, I'm up in the Northern beaches and, and walkability is like one zero out of 10. And like there's no footpaths, the scale was alike, you know, Everest. And it really is like a massive deterrent on the area. Like it's, it's, you have to get in a car and you know, if you're new to the area, you don't really think about that. And the safety with prams and things like that. So it's just like one of those things that buyers wouldn't think about before they buy, but by looking at studies like this, they're aware of them

Alice Stolz:

Well, and it has such an impact on your lifestyle. So if you are in that situation, you can't just tootle down to the shops, you know, with your kids, for a walk to get an ice cream. And I'd argue that, you know, I love doing things like that. So for me, I've learned that that is important and I think for different horses for courses, but yeah, for me, it's a really big part of where I leave is having a lovely area. When I walk out my front door to feel like, to feel connected to my community and to feel it's a really pleasant environment to be in. And I would compromise on the size of the house. I have to have higher walkability for example, and a beautiful park nearby.

Veronica Morgan:

And that's something, you know, it is an absolute, it's like the human condition of property buying this, this dilemma between space and location. And it comes up in nearly every search that we work with with clients. It's a, it's a very interesting idea. And people often don't realize what they are prepared to compromise on until they're presented with it. So, you know, they could have the ideal home, but it is remote in, in terms of innocence, in a suburb where they do need to drive everywhere. And then you put them in that you drop them into that location where they can walk and they'll be part of a bit more vibrant and you'll find out very quickly whether you can cope with a smaller home or not. But so I wonder that back to the sort of the COVID search activity, because if people are searching for home offices and bigger homes, do you think that, you know, that might be a bit of a migration to that, and then they realize that they miss that conductivity in the walkability?

Alice Stolz:

Well, I really do think a lot about that. And I think a lot of people are particularly with children at home. People are saying, I need a bigger house. I'm hearing this all the time. I need more space. I'm literally going mental. I will make the compromise. I'll move further out to the outer suburbs. If I, if I need to be able to sell my house in the inner city, buy out further, but then they're stuck out there and that feeling of isolation. And I think we heard so much about the detrimental effects of isolation during, during lockdown. And I feel really concerned that people think that is a solution to have more space. But I mean, my opinion is bigger is not always better. And I think you really need to weigh up. Is that okay for you? That you suddenly, your kids can't walk to school for example, because you've moved so far away, you have to drive them or they have to get a bus each day.

Alice Stolz:

Is that worth it for having an extra bedroom or you or your children having their own bathroom or something? You know, it's an interesting conundrum that I think a lot of people are facing at the moment. And I suppose I would really caution people to think very long and hard about these decisions before have a nuclear reaction of I've got to get out of his house.

Veronica Morgan:

I would encourage them to utilize Airbnb and do those sorts of weeks, days in an area. For instance, there's a good way to test it. And also just don't be afraid to rent for a while, but has it been, so we, we, you seen a spike in, in different keyword searches. You've seen interest in certainly search activity in you know, those tree and cemetery change areas. Have you seen a spike in transactions?

Alice Stolz:

So people that would like to be, but we do not have enough stock at the moment. Um you only need to go around Melbourne Sydney, Brisbane at the moment to see that there is not enough stock. I don't know what you guys have noticed, but all around me, I'm saying people queuing up for open for inspections, good properties are selling very quickly. And when I say good property, I mean one, that's got a great floor plan, a good, good location, and it's priced accordingly for four bedrooms at the moment. I can tell you that there definitely is. So, but, but there's, there's just not enough stock to meet the demands at the moment. And I, I think that will slowly change. I wonder this year, but we have a bit of a shift in, you know, people not holding on holding off, waiting to sell into, into spring. You know, people years ago used to be obsessed with, I've got to wait till the wisteria is in full bloom and the blossoms on the train, the garden looks gorgeous. I think that idea of waiting to spring won't happen as much this year and people who have been waiting to sell will probably list sooner than later, rather than wait. And because waiting for what does it really make a difference if the roses are out? I mean, I've always been a bit cynical of that. And I think you've just got more competition really in spring.

Alice Stolz:

And I think it's also good to see a house sort of, you know, warts and all like during the winter, if a house looks beautiful in winter, it will look absolutely incredible in summer. And people who are selling in winter can do very clever things to make their house even more luscious and gorgeous and inviting to be in. So there are, there are ways around that, but I just think until we get more stock on the market, we're not really seeing what's really happening and what people are really wanting to do because people just can't can't buy it.

Veronica Morgan:

But the stock levels low stock levels, does that apply outside of the major cities as well?

Alice Stolz:

Yep. It's happening all around the country. So we're seeing things slowly improve as people are dipping their toes back in the water this week. It's interesting watching in Victoria though, which was slowly rising with COVID now on the increase again, and the sort of the threat of potential lockdowns. Again, you can see it sort of quivering a little bit. So what's going to happen in that market. It's really affecting people's confidence about, you know, should I go, or should I stay there in terms of, of selling or making the plunge to buy in new South Wales, you can see more sort of strength, I think, in what there's more confidence in that market. So it'd be interesting to watch what happens in Victoria in parallel to what happens on the health front.

Chris Bates:

So with the new search kind of trends, You've got, obviously the, you know, our home office is kind of one key word that people are looking at. They're looking at more region areas, but when they actually go to that and they get like, say a hundred options in that area, are you finding there's a massive discrepancy in the views per listings, as in people that are always really just wanting the absolute quality properties and the things that kind of maybe main roads or compromised the views publicity on those is dramatically down. So you're seeing this massive kind of flight to quality at all, or you're not, you haven't really seen that though.

Alice Stolz:

I haven't seen that data, but I do know that renovated properties are always much more appealing and alluring to people. However, they obviously price lot differently. So you sort of had that appeal of when when a property has been renovated people think great, the hard work's done for me. And then there's a next category down, which is sort of who are interested in completely unrenovated on that price point. And that's why I think it can be a bit tricky if you're in that no man's land of renovated, but not that well or a long time ago, because you're not getting the bargain of completely, unrenovated a lot of work to do here. Renovators delight that headline that always seems to attract lots of people to having a job completely done. And I think, you know, I mean, you know, gosh, haven't, we all been through enough this year without having to then renovate a property is how I kind of personally feel at the moment having said that I'm about to do it.

Alice Stolz:

But I D I do think for a lot of people at the moment, it is a lot of the too hard basket is to do a lot of, a lot of work on the property. Is it a bit in the too hard basket, I suppose? But I do think there's a premium properties that have been done. They're ready to go move in straight away because some people haven't been that financially impacted by COVID and I, and do still have secure employment. And those people are wanting to transact, like the act market has just gone from strength to strength during covert, because you look at the sort of employment there it is. So rock solid and secure. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I would say touch wood for the Canberrans amongst us, but, but it is a very rock solid market and it hasn't even been dented by COVID.

Veronica Morgan:

It is interesting, isn't it? Because I've got this sort of a bit of a theory that we've got the covert impact on the market, you know, not withstanding second wave or what might happen next, but there's the first bit, which was the knee jerk, freaking out panic stations. Oh my God. People stuck that it had sold and, Oh, sorry, I'd already purchased. And then we had the property on the market and there's this sort of mad nutty sort of behavior agents, you know, pressuring them to sell, telling him it's all going to fall off a cliff, always sort of craziness. And then there's about six weeks later. It sort of settled down partly maybe because we get to have auctions and go to open houses again, but everyone sort of seemed to just go, you know what, I'm just going to get on with it. And the same thing happened after the GFC, you know, in that sort of November, December, it was just ridiculous people bailing. This is the end of the world. And then 2009 came back and, and people went dusted themselves on and got back on with Is that reflected in any way in terms of the data that you've got access to or what

Alice Stolz:

It absolutely is Veronica? And I think, you know, I think there was concern that, you know, we saw the RBI last week, you know, I'll call, we'll call it a thought bubble, not what, not what they were really going to pursue that

Veronica Morgan:

I think there's a thought vomit, I mean,

Alice Stolz:

Or something that should never be said, really it's all on sale,

Veronica Morgan:

That's knee jerking. That was ridiculous.

Alice Stolz:

It was completed. It really showed sort of a level that someone in that team went to to think like that I'm referring to them potentially pausing or, or property transactions. So I think there was concern about what will happen. And then I think as we became, and we're also watching, even in the U S where things are so dire and detrimental to the markets, their properties still kept transacting. You know, so I think that the need for shelter is never going to be eradicated no matter what. And that was why for us, it was so much concern when they did look at sort of restricting auctions. And there was a period over Easter where the Victorian government actually stopped even private inspections taking place, which they then back flipped on because it's just completely illogical. And you know, it's an impossible idea that people don't need to be in a house and have the optionality to moving.

Alice Stolz:

There are many vulnerable, vulnerable people, if nothing else, that, that have to have access to that. So I think it, it was alarming initially. And then I completely agree that people sort of took a deep breath, had a cup of tea and thought, you know what it isn't going to be okay, let's go slowly and prudently. And I think there were some people who did have to sell that weekend when lockdowns came in and they did quickly pivots to online auctions. And the market responded. Was it perfect? No, but people still managed to transact sales got done. There were many properties, which so well over reserve that for those that have agro properties or, or really well priced properties did still sell really strongly. And what we are seeing, it's the more C B grade properties that have struggled to sell, but they do eventually do eventually move.

Veronica Morgan:

I just think the way we transacted during COVID was quite different than what we had done, not having public auctions on the street. But some listings were selling in a couple of days. You know, some people quickly were like, let's go now. I don't want to wait, go, go, go. And, and the transaction was done. And arguably for those people, it's probably a lot less stressful than what it had been had. They had a full campaign, perhaps the problem with that though, is you just miss the transparency around having an auction, which, you know, I'm a believer in but yeah, it's horses for courses

Veronica Morgan:

And a lot of buyers fear auctions, but that is one of the huge benefits that transparency, I have to say that you know, the agents sort of loved, you know, a lot of them, I think, loves the cover of COVID, you know, in terms of how they, their language around pricing, the language around negotiations, all that sort of thing was, was rather interesting. And a lot of old tricks came out of the, out of the bags. And I thought, Oh, I haven't heard those lines for awhile.

Veronica Morgan:

Don't forget that you can access the transcript for this episode on the website, as well as download our free fall or forecast to report, which experts can you trust to get it right? The elephant in the room.com did I, you, we love hearing your questions and we're planning more listener Q and a episodes. Please send your questions in. You can send them via the website, which is the elephant in the room.com today. You or directly via email to questions@theelephantintheroom.com.edu,

Veronica Morgan:

What you say there about the a a and B and C grade properties. Exactly what, what we see and what we talk about a lot on this podcast. And this is I it's funny, Chris, you said something the other day, and I thought this is a, it's a good description of really the difference of clearance rates. You know, what does a high clearance rate mean? We always say that high clearance rates are over 70% clearance rates is, or that's a, it's a sellers market. Anything under 60% is a buyer's market and sort of 60 to 70 is sort of a balanced market, right? But the reality is anything over 70% basically means that B and C grade properties are getting competition. And it basically FOMO and anything under that is basically only the good stuff is selling at auction. And it's a really great way to, to really define a market.

Alice Stolz:

And I think that during COVID, we did need to look less at clearance rates because there weren't as many options. Whereas when he properties transactions in the winter is one of many auctions either. And I think what you need to look at other metrics in the area, you need to really comb through listings, speak, to speak to agents and experts in those markets to understand what is happening and what is transacting. I think there was a period there probably for about six weeks. We're looking at the clearance rate. It was, it was I'm not saying it was reckless, but it was, it was little value when you weren't getting a proper snapshot of what the market was actually doing. Well, it was no value because the thing is that you had

Veronica Morgan:

Property has been drawn, not because it was no interest, you had properties been withdrawn because of COVID because of a health, health problem. And also because the, the rules changed in terms of how they could actually take that property to market. And so when you got that and when you got that causing withdrawals, that's not your typical reason for withdrawn property. So of course, when you get clearance rates in the 30%, you know, the 32 to 34, 30 to 40% brand, it's not accurate reflecting. The amount of buyers are out there for those properties.

Alice Stolz:

And it's very dangerous to read that snapshot of a clearance rate of 34% and all that, that, that, that encapsulates everything that's happening because it's not the full picture of the market.

Chris Bates:

Yeah. I had a client I'm kind of side. So it's the other way. Cause you know, I was kind of arguing that buyers are kind of back and we could say that through search data essentially said, well, the clearance rates aren't really matching up. And you know, I think that, you know, you're very, if you start focusing on one metric like that, you can very much kind of delay the market, you know, your decision because if clearance rates do change, you kinda already kind of missed the boat, right? So, you know, clearance rates are one thing that I think people put way too much reliance on. And you know, a lot of that comes to how you get your data, right? So I know that one of the things I love to do on a Saturday night around six to six 30, sometimes a little bit kind of lighter is looking at all your auction results on the domain app. How do you as a business, get that data and make sure that it's consistent every week and you actually getting the most results possible.

Alice Stolz:

So we, we have a data team who collect those results from agents and we also contact agents for their results that Saturday night, right though, is the preliminary clearance. Right? And then, so during the week that rate gets adjusted and then Thursday, the final rate is the final number for that week. So it will, it will fluctuate. And I, that's why I think if you're a real sort of data nerd about stuff like that, and you really do want to know a really accurate description, you do need to wait for the Thursday to look at all results. When, when they have all come, all those results have been entered into the system.

Veronica Morgan:

Too, but there's a relativity about it, isn't it? And so, I mean, for years I'm stuck using the Saturday afternoon one because I've been using it for over 10 years and the minute I changed, you know, it's no longer relative to how I've been measuring it in the past, you know? So you've got to make sure you stick to the same data set every week if you're using it as for a comparison Sykes. Yup.

Alice Stolz:

And they're really coming over at a dinner party conversation opener. Then did you say the clearance right today? You know, I think, I think on a Saturday night, I'm saying, so I completely understand what you're saying, but I just think that if you really only looking at that metric and you need to do with a bit of caution and wait for that final number, but I do love, as I said, it's my opening line on 7:0q0 PM on Saturday night. And it's, it's a good conversation opener.

Veronica Morgan:

It's funny, there was an article in the herald in the domain a few weeks back. Is it regarding the journalists? Yes. And there was about a a Stanmore property in STEM or that had gone to auction and, you know, and, and talking about others in the street that it's all pre pre COVID you know, two order, a thousand more in this past in et cetera, et cetera. And it was interesting because even then I thought to myself, look that was being offered for sale by an out of area agent. There's a variable, you know each location was a little bit closer to Parramatta road than the others. That's a variable it's, it's on a sloping block. That's a variable, there's all these variables that really, if you want to truly understand why one property might pass in versus at a certain price and even then it's a vendor's bid it's I don't even know I haven't checked what it sold for. That's not even relative to what the other soul, because they sold and this one hasn't sold yet. And so there's all of that. I guess you guys have gotta write stories and come out every week with the story, but at an angle. But, but for me, I just can't help myself.

Alice Stolz:

I look at that, that's something else that needs to be looked at. In fact, I started writing a piece on response to it, but then I got stuck doing other things you should finish. I'd love to write, you should finish it right again. But I do think that's why I really encourage people. It's all you need to get out amongst it and be part of this pack on, on a weekend or midweek, whenever you want to do your inspections and speak to people, eavesdrop on conversations. I'm terrible at doing that when people at open for inspections, because you really get a sentiment of what people are saying and thinking about when they're walking through those properties and talking about the price and they, you know, kicking the tires of metaphorically of the property and talking about the lack of the good orientation or, or the bad kitchen when I left the house has had or something. But you can see what's really seducing people into thinking that's an amazing property or not, but just by being out amongst it, it's so true.

Chris Bates:

Article you use as a reference point for just our listeners to kind of dig a little bit deeper now, because I understand the premise of that article and I read it myself and I thought, let me have a look at that property. And I did the same thing as you Veronica saw that it was backing onto Paramatta road. And I thought, well, that's a property that you wouldn't compromise on for, at the moment. You just, unless you're really desperate and buyers are desperate at the moment. Like they were just before COVID. So, you know, on the face of it, it looks like, yeah, prices have fallen 200 grands, but what it kind of shows is that people aren't desperate because they're not willing to buy something that's backing on to kind of Paramatta road. Yeah. And I think that's the danger when we read articles is we go, Oh, that's must be true because there's a reference point. It all makes sense. But until you kind of dig a bit deeper, then you can kind of figure out actually, maybe it does make sense. You know,

Veronica Morgan:

I find that I like over hearing what people say at open houses too, because obviously if I'm particularly interested in a property, I like to know that, you know, I can see the negatives, but I like to make sure that other buyers are seeing those negatives and I'm continuing to read it. Right. But there's also a lot of talk. I hear a lot of people that open houses, you know, really badgering the agents and, and, you know, I think to myself, you can, you can talk to the cows, come home. You can tell them that the market's falling. You can tell him, you wouldn't pay it. You 400,000 less than they are. Then they're quoting, et cetera, et cetera, but you're not going to buy a property if that is the way you're going about it. And it's just, it's interesting that there is a sort of a segment of, of buyers out there at the moment that are, they're sort of bullies.

Veronica Morgan:

I feel like, well, I think they're the bears. And they're all convinced that they're right. They're convinced that everything's falling. They won't actually buy anything anyway, because I think it's going to fall further. And in the meantime property still transacts property still ticks over prices. Aren't falling off a cliff in these areas. And.

Alice Stolz:

Some people are missing those drain properties that, yes, because I suppose there's an ego that's getting in their way or is an arrogance, I don't know. But that's why, that's why I think your motivation for buying a property has to be, you have to really hold that sort of close to your heart and think, am I going to let those other factors get in the way of this? And I mean, only, only the prospective buyer can answer that question, but I, I, yeah, I know what you're saying, Veronica. And I think a lot of those people, you know, I think it's also very useful to lean on an agent. And I think by hitting them up like that and pushing them into a corner, you're not really doing yourself any favors. It is my personal belief. Well, they sell it to spite you. That's what I mean. Like, and at the end of the day, yet you haven't got you, haven't got the property. So

Chris Bates:

Yeah, those property bears that you do see around they very quickly become property bulls when they buy a property. And so, you know, one of that behavioral biases, we value things. You know, when we're trying to buy something, we think the car's worth $9,000. But as soon as we own the car, we think it's worth $11,000. Right. So and we overvalue things that we own. So it's funny, those people always laugh at because, you know, they, they change their tune very fast as soon as they own something, because now they're invested and now they're and that the whole mindset completely shifts.

Veronica Morgan:

Hmm that's if they managed to get something, I mean, it's funny. I was you know, people walking around my you know, that said there are times when agents do accidentally over quote property, you know, that they don't want to over quote, it let's face it. They, they want to get it just right, so that they can, they can generate that level of interest. But but sometimes they do accidentally over quote it, they get a bit, bit gung ho or a bit excited about it. And it doesn't quite hit the Mark of buyers. Well, and you can,

Alice Stolz:

And you can see the challenge when the house next door might've sort of solved for a very strong place, because it became an emotional auction. You know, you had an auction where there was so much hate and demand for it, and people did go crazy and nuts and you can see the difficulty of them when the house next door sells, which is similar enough.

Veronica Morgan:

And that doesn't happen. You can, you can see the conundrum of what it is for that agent when pricing a property. That's why you have to just pour over dash dash drone data and pull into a spreadsheet or work with someone to help you understand pricing and property. And also what you're willing to pay for it. That's the ultimate question here. Absolutely. In fact, I'll just, I'll Chuck a little plug in there only because I've got a little mini course on home buyer Academy. So it's home buyer, academy.com forward slash free course, if anyone is interested, cause I've actually put together a little mini course to teach you how to do that. And there's a spreadsheet in there and it's such good advice because you've got to track property, you've got to inspect them yourself, go to the auctions, see which ones are competitive and which ones aren't competitive, because then you'll start to get the difference.

Veronica Morgan:

You'll get to see why people fight for that. And they didn't fight for that. And that is really, I mean, and you might then think, okay, if you want a bargain, you go for something nobody else is fighting for. But then you have to think down the track when you go to sell it, can you fix it and make it like those other ones? Or is there nothing you can do about it because then that's going to be, you only surround your own neck or an anchor that you won't do as well as a really a real Cracker property that gets all those people fighting over right now.

Alice Stolz:

And I think on that spreadsheet, like you should enter in the w you should enter in the price guide of what the agent is quoting, and then what it actually is, or may want it gets passed in for, and then even what it does eventually so far, and the title gets released to the public. You know, I think it's really worthwhile looking at that to understand what it is, making those prices that go well over reserve. What happened? What was that magic factor that, that, that, that property may have had.

Veronica Morgan:

And so back to livability, because this is a thing that you can't pick up in a little ability survey about a suburb. Can you, this is actually about the individual property within that suburb. And do you guys have anything, have you pulled out anything about that, you know, those individual characteristics of a property that actually make it over perform?

Alice Stolz:

Look, I, I think a lot of it's about sort of also the proportion of the property to the land it's on. And I think in certain areas like, you know, lavender Bay or something in Sydney, for example, it's a tiny little suburb along with most inspiring. And I've got some, I mean, like, sorry, there are some beautiful biggest States on there, but on the whole, they are quite small properties. So I think you have to sort of think about the land ratio to the house size, or couldn't be an apartment couldn't. So I think that's definitely part of it. And that's why I think it's interesting in Victoria and we saw areas like Footscray come into it, which aren't, aren't renowned for having big gardens or very big houses even, but that still managed to come as part of that offering livable accommodation at the same time.

Veronica Morgan:

Well, it comes back to that trade off that you mentioned earlier, which is spice versus location, you know, you willing to give up a big garden in order to be closer in, I mean, Footscray is still an inner West suburb, right? Outer inner West or no, it's the inner West of Melbourne. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Bates:

That's a great summer because it's the location's amazing access to cafes, you know, commute, the things that were holding it back in terms of, you know, why jumped up the ability was obviously the crime and the gentrification. And I think those are the amazing suburbs to look for because if those things do change, then the suburb dramatically shifts in terms of its desirability. And that's where you get the biggest kind of uplift.

Veronica Morgan:

Oh, sorry, sorry. Sorry. But say, sorry. Hills in Sydney. About 20 years ago when I first started in real estate that had a shock had I think it was the highest crime rate in Sydney and yet, and now, you know, try and buy an apartment there. Well, yeah.

Alice Stolz:

And, and yeah, sorry, who was Redfern in Sydney as well? We've seen the same thing has happened and we've seen the same things, you know, I mean, even in Victoria, in Melbourne, in port Melbourne, it was used to be very working class suburb. And now it's much really of hugely desirable suburbs in Melbourne. So I do think you kind of want to get to those areas before that, before they become really livable and you've actually priced out of them. We saw that we've seen that even obviously North could in Melbourne, sort of the home of Brunswick, Northcote, Thornbury, you know, people now think, Oh, I'd be, I'm willing to move to Thornbury. And now that, that idea is just over because it's like, I can't afford that. I've got it at the next plate so slightly, but I love that idea of those sort of bridesmaid suburbs, that the ones that surround the big, the big blue chip areas, or, you know, in terms of price, those areas to make people to go out to the next suburb along, and maybe that will be the next hot spot. If you're willing to go one more train station along the line or something, it could be a good place to live. If, if affordability is such a big factor for foot fee, which it is for many buyers,

Chris Bates:

Amen. Somewhere like Frankston in Melbourne, right. So crime, very high. But livability, okay. So you've got to train straight to the city. You're on the coast, you've got access to the morning, morning to peninsula, et cetera. And so it's really a suburb that potentially should be a nice place to live, but crime and history has kind of made people not want to live there, but you know, things like that have shifted, right? Like Frankston is getting a lot of investment. That's got a bit of community, et cetera. So I think when you're looking at investing, I think livability is such a good basis to kind of overlay on a suburb and go, well, it can, these things change.

Alice Stolz:

Good, better example of that might actually end up being Jalong, which is like the cousin of sort of Frankston because, because it's a huge hospital, they're a huge health infrastructure there, and employment's much stronger in Jalong than it is in Frankston. So I think when you, when you add the layer employment into it, that's a lot more attractive, isn't it than the Frankston, which doesn't have as much infrastructure and resourcing available for jobs because obviously jobs is a huge part of it. If you do live a little bit, a bit further out, it's, that's really important.

Veronica Morgan:

It's also important to think how long these gentrification processes take you know, Jalong, we do the Ford factory close u.

Alice Stolz:

M you know, yeah, probably I think probably about that. Maybe even, maybe even more, but it's a long, it's a long time coming, but I think, you know, the, the infrastructure to get down to Jalong now is so different than what it was, you know, 10 or 15 years ago. And, and the trains that are, that are coming that way as well. But I think a lot of it is also the expansion of towns around it, like torquey, the surf coast town has really expanded and become a greater suburb now. So it's changing the way people live down there and making it a lot more accessible to more people.

Chris Bates:

Yeah. Delong's amazing place to invest. I think you know, you've got a lot of the houses, very similar style to the inner ring of Melbourne by new towns, along West ripple, et cetera, where people who are wanting to live in that beautiful frontage, that beautiful terrace can actually replicate that property in Jalong for, you know, substantially less and then have access to all the morning to other kind of gradation road, et cetera. And the next thing that could potentially be that area is it is a fast foster out. We committed to it. Right?

Alice Stolz:

Yeah. And I think it's a bit like orange in new South Wales. I think of in a similar way that there's a lot of desirability out there and you can, you can really see why it's a beautiful town. It's a beautiful place to place to live.

Veronica Morgan:

I think that interesting that you've got character buildings as well. I think that's got something to do with it. Don't you think? Yeah. I know that what's the main drag of Jalong. This, you know, it does have that lovely historic sort of feel to it. Orange obviously is classic for that. I think Ballarat, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Bates:

You get a beautiful, amazing around the train station houses and, you know, streets and streets and streets to them. But you know, where you don't want to buy in Ballarat is all the house and land packages that are, you know, you can go on for farms and farmers fringes, and it's a kind of a to T market there, you know, the beautiful homes yep. Buy those, but the house on land and the fringes kind of,

Alice Stolz:

Well, we're talking about this on the block the other day, the desirability of people for the period homes or homes with character it can never be underestimated. It cannot. I think people love that idea of having a sort of a piece of history. People obviously want their homes to function, but I think people really love our unique a unique style of property and with a, with a nod to our beautiful, you know, the heritage of the city that we live in. And I think, you know, Victoria has lots of Edwardian, Victorian Federation homes as does obviously Sydney, you know, and Queensland has got those gorgeous old Queensland, the properties. And I think it's a lovely part of Australia that we see so many different sort of elements of architecture over the years and people do amazingly and inventive things, but when they restore those properties and it's all about scarcity, I mean, the simple fact is that if you build something that looks like a Queenslander, it's not a Queenslander, it's something that looks like a Queenslander.

Veronica Morgan:

If you build something, it looks like an old Federation home. It's, it's not, I mean, a lot of project homes for instance, have had these nods to these sort of some of the architectural elements or Federation homes and they just look awful. And, and so you can't replicate it. So therefore that is something. And also there's still, there's still these sort of properties being demolished in, in suburbs where they don't have development control plans to stop that. So these are diminishing resources and you know, when, so that scarcity does add to the the, the cost of them or the price of them was the sustainable price of those. Absolutely.

Chris Bates:

Yeah. One thing I love 

Alice Stolz:

It happened on the block a couple of years ago. And again, this year where they've cut up these old houses from, you know, old towns or older parts of Melbourne and then relocated them one to land in a different suburb. And I think that's a great idea for first home buyers to look at, you know, like a house that would literally be torn down. And if it was in, I don't know, the outskirts of Ballarat finding a block of land and moving it and to watch this is just the most, it's like watching bypass surgery, they cut up the house, perfect sort of quarters, put it on a truck and then relocation and sew it back together again. And it's just amazing. And it's a very affordable way of having heritage, having a house with character in the, in the location that you like. We wouldn't houses. They've gotta be like Queens. That'd be weatherboard

Veronica Morgan:

Drive South from the South, the sunshine coast to Brisbane up higher on the Ridge, on the, on the ride. There's actually like a, an old weatherboard house Shop up there. There's wow. They put there for storage until somebody buys it. Um wow. That's been incredible. Site is quite bizarre. You look up and there's all these sort of Empty, you know, windowless houses waiting for someone to buy them and relocate them.

Alice Stolz:

But I think from what I liked the idea of recycling properties, rather than tearing them down, do you know what I mean? I think as long as they go into the right spot it's a lovely, I'd prefer to see that than it, having all these houses demolished in, in beautiful areas.

Veronica Morgan:

It's a classic cause a weatherboard home. It actually was a very affordable way of building homes back in the day. And so it is sort of rather interesting that that is a good reuse and it does bring that character. And I wonder, I do wonder whether project homes of today will be picked up, carved up, put on a track and take it to different locations in the future. I somehow think loss,

Alice Stolz:

No comment, Veronica on that. Now,

Veronica Morgan:

Have you brought along a property Dumbo for us, a mistake that we can learn from?

Alice Stolz:

I have, and I'm full disclosure. It's actually my own mistake. I'm really going to go. I'm going to be really honest about this one here. It was when it was a few years ago my husband and I were in the midst of trying to buy a property and we found this house that we loved and the auction was, you know, a week and a half away. And we were like, yeah, that's it, we'd done all our due diligence. I was not making any rookie mistakes about not doing I did. We did pest inspections or put the whole shebang. And and then we ended up getting a call and the eight and I disclosed the agent were interested. We would have been tagged as a strong, strong buyer. And then the agent called us that week prior and said, someone's put an offering, they're going to go to auction event.

Alice Stolz:

We're going to sell before auction. And I was, unfortunately I live in Melbourne. I was in Sydney for work that week. And my, my husband, I'm like, okay, quick, let's get our act together. We put a bid back and then it went back and forth. And then I had to hop on a plane to fly back to Melbourne. And during that flight, the final flurry of beads took place. And my husband and I had not settled on our final number, which is obviously crucial. So this whole flight, I just thought, do we have this house or not? And landed, turn my phone on as soon as I could. And we we'd missed out by $10,000. And I suppose the importance means I just can't believe that we'd done all this. We'd had an architect in and others had done every, I dotted every on every tee, but hadn't really had the conversation about just how far we would actually push it to the edge to get our dream property.

Alice Stolz:

And for me, it is the one that got away, you know, that property, it wasn't the right school zone for us and the right train station. And I mean, it's, you know, and maybe it would have gone up again. It would have, we would have got priced out, but I just always think we were so naive not to have really pressure tested our final price and had a grade on that. Right. From the start we had a ballpark price, we had our financing from the bank, but we, we really should have gone down to that absolute granular detail of having that price locked in of what we were prepared to stretch to before and just, and just, and not to be in the same room at the same time was just all the more stressful. And it was completely our own fault. Yeah.

Chris Bates:

You probably expect me to have that conversation on Thursday or Friday, or even say,

Alice Stolz:

Chris, we had like, and we kept saying on Thursday night, we'll have the conversation. We'll really work out. How much do we really want to stretch for it? And I think it's, and you can see people at auctions. I see this often in the street and the wives elbowing the husband, come on, like it's a little bit more go, go, go. And, and someone's like, no. And I think you just have to be so aligned as to what your, what your absolute Cappies, and if you've got someone buying for you, that's a, that's a very good way of doing that. Cause I literally, you know, put you in a headlock gently and say, I, is this your max? You know, let's not go over that. Or, you know, do you want me to push and pull you on that one? But for us just to not have that alignment, I just think we were such Muppets.

Veronica Morgan:

And yeah, we didn't make the same mistake. We've got the hat, we've got another house eventually, but I do, you know, I do think that was the one that got away. Oh, that's such a good Dumbo and so hard. That's actually one of the reasons I wrote the book auction ready because I do go and see people at auction. Exactly what you're talking about there, Alice, where, you know, it's at the point of the auction when the emotion is at its absolute height that they suddenly realize I haven't actually had that conversation is under pressure. How far will we go? And that's exactly what you say. You got caught out by not actually having that figure in your head that, so you woke up the next. So we got off the plane with regrets and it sounds unbelievable as I said out loud. So what were you thinking, Alex?

Alice Stolz:

Why didn't we have that? That was the one thing you had to have before anything really, but it's really common. And we just kept thinking, or maybe we'll work out. We really do want, and then we'll, we'll work out something more creative and in our final price or something, you know, but we just, I just, I can't believe I was so naive I suppose, but yeah, it was a lesson learned and did not make that mistake again.

Veronica Morgan:

I've got a theory that one of the reasons that that is why people don't have don't really, really pressure test, like you say, their limit is because they're really still thinking about what do you think we might be able to get it for? So they're thinking, what can we, you know, they're thinking bargain as opposed to, where will I go if I have to w at what point will I am I prepared to let it go? Where will I not want to miss out on it? You know, at what point will I do not want to miss out on it for, it's almost like they're being a perennial optimist and thinking that this is not the worst case, whereas we've covered if you think worst case. And I think it's the same for, for vendors in the end, the house we bought in the end. And I'm, I'm not, I'm not plugging vendor advocates here, but I think the house that we bought was a couple that were divorcing and they tried to sell in the November that year, it got passed it at auction. You know, there are about, I think they'll go about 50 K under their reserve. And I got past him, but they were divorcing. So three months later, they relisted after Christmas, they still hadn't sold. And apparently their relationship was getting worse and worse.

Alice Stolz:

They changed agents, you know, you can see what's going. And then we got to a new agent who contacted us about it. And we came in and they said, you can offer well under what they're asking, because they now have to sell. They're literally about to throttle each other. And then, so we got it for even less than that passed in for an auction in November. And the market had also changed. So I mean, it worked in our favor, but I just thought had those poor people had a vendor advocate or someone to help them, you know, take the book, the burden, the hands with one or two in the Bush on the day, they would have been financially a lot hundreds of thousands, better off than what they ended up having to sell for. It's so emotional and, and, you know, you're absolutely right, but you just gave us to Dumbo. So that's fabulous. Do Dumbos for the price. There you go.

Chris Bates:

What's the second one, I guess, was potentially just being ready to negotiate or having someone because, I mean, you jumped on the plane. I mean, you probably, that was kicking off prior to the flight. It would have been tempting just to miss the flight

Alice Stolz:

And I've got on the plane. Like again, what was I thinking? Like, I don't know why, I didn't just think get the next flight, Alice. It's nothing, you know, in the sky pressure, high pressure situations. We never think clearly it's only afterwards we think, Oh, hindsight. So clear completely, completely.

Veronica Morgan:

Thank you so much. Alice has been a really great chat. We've enjoyed those insights into what's happening in, you know, let's go back to where we started this around the tree and see changes in an a and a shift and a I guess an awareness that lifestyle and potentially that means outside of our cities is something that's very high on the list of a lot of Australians at the moment. So thank you so much for coming along. It was a pleasure to chat with you both.

Chris Bates:

Thank you. Thank you, Alice. Cheers. We want to make you a better elephant rider. And this week's elephant rider training is

Veronica Morgan:

We talked a bit there with Alice around, you know, looking at unrenovated properties versus renovated properties. There's a gap between un-renovated and renovated, and that is renovated but dated. So if a property has been renovated in the eighties

Veronica Morgan:

Or the nineties, it's probably very unpopular. You know, you've got renovators who go for things that are in original condition and pretty shabby condition. You've got people that are not renovators who want to go for something that's been recently done, but in the middle often you've got properties that don't actually require anywhere near the same amount of renovating as an unrenovated property. And yet they, they tend to be, they fit in a no man's land with buyers, you know, the renovators don't like it. And the, and the people that don't want to do work, don't like it, but there's some great opportunities in there if the property has good bones and particularly if it's in a good location. So I would say, look for a bit of, you know, salmon pink walls and gray carpet. That's really 1980s or in the nineties, lots of glass, bricks, and green granite bench tops. And so there's a really particular design features. I guess, of those times, that really data property, you could actually potentially pick up real opportunity that requires renovation. Sure. But no, we need the same amount of structural renovation. That's something that is completely unrenovated needs and potentially at a discount. Sometimes those properties sell for less than the unrenovated version, and yet they need less money spent on them.

Chris Bates:

I guess it's also just being careful. You don't buy the renovated one. It's just a cheap renovated shin job needs fully renovated, but you know, you haven't really realized that it's maybe not the best quality. Maybe it's going to date really fast, et cetera. So yeah, not all renovations are,

Veronica Morgan:

It's very true lipstick on a pig. And, and particularly in with fashion, you know, and obviously we, usually those sorts of properties are dressed within an inch of their lives. And when you go and do your presale inspection, you suddenly realize, Oh God, it isn't really as good as I thought it was.

Chris Bates:

Yeah. The Hampton style is generally the furniture and white wall. So it's tight fence. Why you just got white walls,

Veronica Morgan:

Please join us for our next episode. When we're interviewing the property manager, Lisa Inge, and we're finding out how hard coronavirus really has hit property investors, who's been hit hardest. What rental falls are really big experience, particularly in Sydney, but does apply these principles, do apply in other States, we're going to understand what type of investment properties be most vulnerable to the pandemic. And what's been the most resilient plus great insights into the actual true amount of tenants that are asking for rental relief. It's not as high as we might be led to believe. Thanks for joining us. We're not to say you again. And our EMBA don't be a Dumbo.