Episode 139 | Paper to Digital, how proptech business PEXA leads the way | Lisa Dowie, PEXA

Find out how PEXA’s has transformed the property transaction throughout the settlement process.
From meeting rooms at midday to digital boardroom online, we interviewed Lisa Dowie, chief customer officer at PEXA. PEXA has been instrumental in delivering new tech solutions to the outdated property market by connecting all the stakeholders in the transaction. In this episode we discuss how the paper trail ends with PEXA and how the complete digital property transaction is just around the corner.
Here’s what we covered:

• What is PEXA and how do they improve standards in the property transaction?

• How PEXA has reduced the amount of delayed settlements across Australia.

• Which states will receive PEXA support next?

• Has PEXA benefited from COVID in streamlining their product?

• What were some of the problems associated with digitising documents?

• What happens if one part of the transaction refused to use PEXA?

• How digital products are combating digital crimes.

• Why getting a survey done is crucial.

This weeks Dumbo:

• Not having all of your paperwork in order for the property transaction

RELEVANT EPISODES:
Episode 125 | Damien Cooley
Episode 116 | Alison Lacey
Episode 95 | Craig Bigelow

GUEST LINKS:
Pexa - Homepage
Pexa Key - App

HOST LINKS:
Looking for a Sydney Buyers Agent? www.gooddeeds.com.au
Work with Veronica: https://linktr.ee/veronicamorgan

Looking for a Mortgage Broker? www.wealthful.com.au
Work with Chris: hello@wealthful.com.au

Send in your questions to: questions@theelephantintheroom.com.au

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: 
Please note that this has been transcribed by half-human-half-robot, so brace yourself for typos and the odd bit of weirdness…
This episode was recorded in August, 2020.

Veronica Morgan: Most property buyers and real estate agents for that matter would have no idea what goes on behind the scenes between signing a contract and settling on a property. A quiet revolution started a few years back when the whole process began the move to digital before then we'd often hear of settlements delayed because can you believe it? The bank had lost the paperwork. A company called PEXA has led the way in this space. And today we're keen to understand the improvements that have been made to the process. The challenges in stitching together, banks, governments, and conveyancing practitioners in every state and territory. The surprising obstacles, yes, it appears a few elephants have made their presence felt and the market insights. It can be derived through the data that is now available as a result of this platform being used at scale.

Veronica Morgan: Welcome to the elephant in the room. This is the podcast where we love to talk about the big things in property that never usually get talked about. I'm Veronica Morgan, real estate agent buyer's agent cohost of Foxtel's location, location, location, Australia, and author of auction ready.

Chris Bates: And I'm Chris Bates mortgage broker. Before we get started, I need to let you know that nothing we say on here can be taken as personal advice. We always recommend you engage the services of a professional.

Veronica Morgan: Don't forget that you can access the transcript for this episode on the website, as well as download our free, full or forecast report, which experts can you trust to get it right? The elephant in the room.com did I? You. We're joined today by Pyxis chief customer officer Lisa Dowie as a senior leader in financial and information technology industries, Lisa's played an active role in assisting the markets transitioned to the digital era of property settlement.

Veronica Morgan: She advocates for lawyers and conveyancers across Australia who represent home buyers and sellers supporting them with critical property services. Since buyers often have no idea how sediment actually comes about, we thought it was a good opportunity to discuss why your choice of property, lawyer or conveyancer needs to take into account their ability to operate digitally. Thank you very much for joining us today. Lisa,

Lisa Dowie: Thank you, Veronica and Chris for having me, I'm excited to join. I have to probably declared. I'm a bit of a property. Enthusiastic. I am like many Australians. I think I, I love property. I am a part time property investor. And as you rightly called out, I do work within the industry at Australia.

Veronica Morgan: This does tend to happen that people get attracted to the industry.

Chris Bates: Thanks for joining us. Lisa I'm really appreciate your time. I mean, for our listeners, what's, what's the elevator pitch for PEX or like, what is it and how does it actually work? And how's it kind of transformed the industry.

Lisa Dowie: Good question. And one, I get often asked, particularly at barbecues, you Know, you go to people, meet people and you talk about what you do for a job. And often when you talk about property settlements people, aren't always that familiar with how it works and what improvements have been introduced. So I guess the snapshot, what we've done is we have digitized the property settlement process, but basically we've taken an old paper based settlement process where previously banks and lawyers would all meet up in various settlement rooms across the same time to actually think about now, but they would meet up physically exchange documents and checks. And so we've replaced that with a really simple online system that those same people use and they meet in what we sort of call a digital workspace. And in most instances, that means that simultaneously we complete lodgement with the land registries across Australia and then disperse those settlement funds are quite instantaneous to the seller.

Chris Bates: So what I mean, so obviously you just highlighted one of the big benefits of a digital sort of settlement is all the parties don't need to get in a room and, you know, swap paper and kind of go on with their day. I mean, that's a huge Tom said, what are some of the massive, other big benefits that you see for the conveyancing sort of industry?

Lisa Dowie: Yeah, so definitely it's the transparency that the process provides. So previously people would meet up on the day of settlement and often they would discover there was discrepancies in some of the documentation. Perhaps there was a mismatch on figures. Something might not have been signed correctly. So then it would have to be canceled, pulled off. People have to go away and rectify things and then come back and settle at a later point in time. Thanks to all those checks and balances are completed in the lead up to settlement. Once you get to the day of settlement, that settlement will proceed. So it's a lot more efficient, obviously safe because paper can be prone to errors and risks. So the digital environment does provide a great greater level of security. And I guess we touched on one. So for the seller access to their funds a lot quicker, they don't have to wait for bank checks clear like previously word, which is a, you know, based on the property values these days, that's a huge benefit for the buyer. It's really around certainty. Many buyers probably wouldn't be aware, but in the paper world, often your interest being registered on title wouldn't happen for some time after settlement. So you, as a new buyer might not be registered for weeks, we'll have to settlement. However, in a digital world, it happens, you know, within minutes you are registered as a new owner. So a lot more certainty in that regard,

Chris Bates: You highlighted the first one there around you know, the issues on the day are getting reduced because you know, some of those issues are sorted out prior. And I guess any kind of discrepancies are kind of found out like actually know when you fix that, has that meant that the mat of, I guess, settlements that are getting delayed has reduced, if you got any evidence to kind of show that, you know, more settlements are happening on the day as planned.

Lisa Dowie: Yeah, definitely. We know day is settlements Has improved greatly previously. It was around 25% settlements would fall over on the day era. We know that that's no longer, no longer the case their settlements happen when we want them to happen on that day. Now that's a real big benefit that we've seen.

Veronica Morgan: That's phenomenal because I mean, and certainly I haven't been as exposed to what he gets as a buyer's agent, but when I was a sales agent, the amount of settlements that were disrupted or delayed were phenomenal. And, and but 25% is higher than I expected, but I'll be no, I remember stories of, of vendors and buyers that were left, you know, particularly with simultaneous settlers. You've got basically somebody's entire house in a truck in between two houses, you know, waiting for settlement to land. So they could actually go and get the keys and then moving to the new place. And then the amount of times where that truck would just have to go and get parked somewhere because with all their stuff in it and they have to go and stay in a hotel because settlement had fallen over. It's so risky. And I don't even know if they'd been properly advised before they haven't got those cells in that pickle.

Lisa Dowie: Yeah, I agree. And I guess it's not even just the financial cost that is incurred when those delays can happen, but it's the emotional and the stress that it puts on people. I mean, it's the biggest investment people ever make in their lives. There's a lot of emotion attached to it. So I think, you know, those emotional levels of stress and the impact that those delays cause is really can be underestimated until you actually experienced that you feel

Chris Bates: Ms. Gravity potties involved, right? That's the difficult thing with a transaction. It's not, you know, the buyer straight to the seller, you've got a bank involved, you've got to believe all representatives. You know, the list of the real estate agent, you know, there's all these parties. And they've all got to do certain things prior to the settlement to make sure it happens right. And, you know, even if one of them doesn't do their job, then you know, things can get delayed and the person buying the house is the kind of the one who deals with all the stress of it all really

Veronica Morgan: We'll just have money going on away from directions. Isn't there, you know, you've got money going to the agent money, going to various disbursements money, go into the lawyer, money, going to the bank money, going to the vendor, you know, so that in itself, and then you've got, and then all the calculations on the day of settlement with, you know, the adjustments for rights and you know what I mean? It's actually quite complicated. And often people don't sort of think those things through, they just think they're buying a house or an apartment. Yeah. It's an extremely complex scenario I'm in.

Lisa Dowie: I must admit before I, I remember when I bought my first property our way back, I wouldn't say how many years ago it was, but I remember once I had some of my finance and everything approved and the real estate agent said to me, you know, so who you're going to get to sort of manage settlement. And I remember thinking, well, it doesn't, doesn't the bank just take care of that. I didn't even realize at that point in time. And I even remember going into the lawyers office that I dealt with at that particular time, Obviously, well, before fax and I remember walking in and they were just mounds and mounds of all around this office. It was basically a little pathway to get through the paper. I remember sitting there at the time thinking, wow, this is a crazy process. The amount that's involved, the complexities pay by the amount of running around. I remember that I had to do to get checks. And what have you and little did, I know that I'd end up working at an organization that ends up digitizing and taking away a lot of that stress, a lot of the the uncertainty, but also just not having transparency about what's actually occurring and what I need to do to ensure that that settlement goes ahead quickly.

Veronica Morgan: So what's involved in the digital process. I mean, I would imagine every state and territory has its own legislation, right? You've got banks and then you've got to get every lender on board, right. And then you've got to get lawyers and conveyances solicitors, you know, using it. How do you, I mean, what has been involved in getting that?

Lisa Dowie: I have to say it's been a huge behavioral shift, you know, to change long ingrained process. I mean, property had been settled in Australia for 150 years, the same way, particularly with little innovation that happened along the way. So you get a whole industry with all those parties that you've talked about, lawyers, conveyancers banks, also the land registries, the state revenue offices. And we've also connected with the reserve bank of Australia. So really big players within the Australian market, getting them to all change, what they needed to change at the same time to enable this shift was, was really huge. It was done by state, by state, and it's probably worth your listeners knowing the States that we're actually live in. Cause we haven't fully transitioned the whole of the country yet, but very close to. So Queensland new South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, and Western Australia all live using our platform. And about 75% of all property transactions happen on the PEXA platform at the moment, excitingly act is the next day. So they are due to come online in September this year. And we definitely committed to getting Tasmania and Northern territory on our roadmap too. So we are committed to a hundred percent digital strategy right across Australia. So I think that's important for your listeners to know,

Veronica Morgan: I'm curious about the priority there, who set the agenda in, or the ranking or the order. Is it the States and territories putting up their hands saying, yes, we want to be part of this or is it driven by you guys?

Lisa Dowie: Well, it's a bit of a background story. I guess how Pixar came about it was out of a COAG initiative, one of the most successful COAG initiatives, I think that was actually got off the ground and delivered. And as part of that COAG initiative, initially four States actually bought in as originally investors into Pixar back in the early days. So new South Wales, Queensland, Victoria, and was they also, they were bought in before, you know, the platform was even built because I could recognize that there was some huge benefits for the Australian economy in having a national platform such as fixer. So, and then we definitely had to liaise and consult because each state had to make changes on their own side to make the technology integrated and work. So it was very much based upon each state's priorities when they were able to come on board, how that worked in. So it was a real coordinated approach for how the priorities were set. But obviously the States that invested early were very keen to get on board early as well.

Veronica Morgan: And where has been the greatest resistance?

Lisa Dowie: Um look, I think there has been any great resistance it's really been around. I guess we had to work really hard with the lawyers and conveyancers across Australia. And I don't think it's about resistance. It's just that there are so many of them, there is in excess of 10,000 firms across the country. And the nature of the transaction requires all four parties to be in the pixel platform and enabled and ready to transact. So getting that large scale network up and running, training them, helping them ensuring they felt supported because you know, it's a real big shift for people to make. You're dealing with huge sums of money.

Lisa Dowie: So there is always concern about changing your processes and how you deal with that within your business. So our approach to that though, was really around supporting, we deployed a field force of people to go out and help lawyers and conveyancers learn how to use the platform, hold their hands for their initial transactions until I felt confident and able to use the platform themselves.

Veronica Morgan: Because I mean, generally speaking people don't really like change. Do you think that they've been any that have decided they're getting close to retirement? They just decided this is time to hang with boots up.

Lisa Dowie: Yeah, you'd be surprised. I heard so many comments. I've spent the last four years, five years really working with lawyers and conveyancers across Australia. And we did a lot of, you know, being presentations to rooms full of lawyers and commands. And I initially, I did hear some of those comments, but I think that's a bit of the change cycle that humans go through sort of this initial resistance. Then you become a little bit more curious and want to learn a little bit more about what is this change, understanding how it's going to impact you personally. But I have seen time and time again at any of those people that initially thought, Oh, this is not quite for me. They do a one 80 once they get comfortable once that fear and that worry about what could go wrong is sort of, they learn through practice. That's not actually something they need to worry about. You say that they become some of the biggest advocates of the platform in the end.

Chris Bates: So, so Cove, it's been a bit of a you know, a change for all of us, I guess, and the way that we all do business. How has that sort of play, I mean, has it been a major benefit, I guess for enabling PEXA I guess, to go even more digital and is it kinda proven how the power of the platform is so powerful? I guess?

Lisa Dowie: Yeah, it certainly has. I think what COVID has done is it has highlighted, I think the fragility of paper based processes, but at the same time, it really has shown a spotlight on the advantages of being digital and the agility that that provides particularly in this industry. So I, because the country is in sort of different States of maturity, we did have South Australia at the time when COVID hit, we're doing about 30% of their property transactions by our PEXA. And what happens in Adelaide is traditionally, you know, majority of their transactions or happen at a settlement room in Adelaide CBD. So everybody goes in there at between 11 and 2:00 PM every day to do their property settlements with COVID. They made a decision to close that settlement room. So we saw a really Swift uptake where the market went from about 35% to 80% in a matter of weeks.

Lisa Dowie: Wow. So that definitely, you know, is something that we saw during Cobra. Dan was saying a little bit similar in Queensland as well. That's one of our other less mature States and they are also have the center increased. I've taken Queensland over recent months.

Veronica Morgan: It's interesting you say Queensland because I was one of the original investors. So you haven't seen the, the adoption as, as strong as say in new South Wales in Victoria.

Lisa Dowie: Hasn't been as strong. No, and I think a lot of that comes down to sort of the alignment of processes in each state and also some of the legislation and rules that the various land registry set up. A lot of States actually, you know, recognize that they wanted to have paper and digital settlements have sort of the equal rules. So that one wasn't easier or harder than the other, which make it, made it easier for practitioners to make the change.

Lisa Dowie: However, in Queensland, they wanted to make sure that paper transactions, obviously weren't easier than doing a, you know, an electronic settlement because we're looking for barriers for change. You want to try and remove as much of those as possible. And Queensland still has a few things in place where I guess from a practitioner's point of view, a lawyer, you could think that, Oh, it's just easier if I do it in paper, because I don't have to do as many checks or do as many forms, et cetera, that I might need to do like to verify the identity of my client and have our client or authority form on finding findings dress. So that's one of the obstacles that we are overcoming and also Queensland doesn't have any conveyances. They have all lawyers. Yeah. Conveyances aren't recognized in Queensland. And what we certainly saw in many other States was that I believe conveyances it's their bread and butter, what they do around property transactions.

Lisa Dowie: So they were keen part of the change. They were out early adopters. Whereas as you would know, law firms have multi-disciplined practices within their firms and property might only be a smaller part. So it's not sort of top of mind for many law firms in Queensland as well,

Veronica Morgan: Which is actually, that's quite interesting because you know, one of the things that we recommend people do is always use a property specialist. So they're going to use a lawyer, you know, don't go to your local generalist and not, I guess this is an interesting issue because I imagine this, what sort of incentive is there for just a local general generalist who does a little bit of everything to take the time. And I presume there's money involved in them coming on the platform as well. You know, it's quite a bit of a hurdle, right? So it is going to weed out some of the people that probably have been conveyancing or doing conveyancing where that potentially shouldn't have been a.

Lisa Dowie: Potentially, I think it will probably create more of those specialists. And you may see some of those firms like family law firms, for example, or immigration lawyers probably not do those property transactions and just stop offering that service and let the professionals, as you said, who specialize in property, which I think is great for the industry, if that occurs. Yeah.

Chris Bates: So on the actual transaction side, so the seller and the buyer, what are some of the things you, you know, cause the whole process is getting digitalized or the bank mortgages, the mortgage document et cetera, even just the whole lodgement at banks for the finance side, do you kind of foresee that we could see, you know, much faster settlements in a few years time? You know, could you say, you know, two weeks settlements, et cetera, do you, do you see that's where things like pecs are going to enable things to get much faster?

Lisa Dowie: Yeah. I think Pixar does provide the ability for that to occur. I think a lot of that then depends upon the industry. I mean, we know, and we can see instances as far as the PEXA platform is concerned. Sometimes things outside of Pixar happen the way they might happen and we can get a settlement into our platform, you know, two days ahead of settlement and the settlement. And that's obviously not an ideal scenario, but there are situations where things about late. So from a technology and a platform point of view. Absolutely. We can facilitate that. I think a lot of it depends upon the industry, but personally I'm of the view that I think over the years to come, we will see those settlement and durations reduce over time.

Veronica Morgan: But what is it that holds up sediment? Cause I've always thought it was the banks look.

Lisa Dowie: Yeah, it's a combination of things. And I think that might be something if you've spoken to a lawyer, I can main, see, you've heard, I think banks can probably say the same about lawyers and conveyancers, but I think often the holdups can be around. And I think this is where probably buyers and sellers can contribute. Great is just around the amount of document, even though Pixar is a digital platform, there are still documents that both the banks and the lawyers and conveyancers will require to be completed. Getting those back promptly really can be one of the biggest contributors to a settlement being delayed. So I think making sure that all those documents that buyers and sellers received a returned as quickly as possible is really the ultimate goal to ensure that settlement isn't delayed.

Chris Bates: Yeah. So on that, I mean, you know, Macquarie, for example, don't just, you know, we do a lot with them, but you know, they were kind of the forefront of digitalizing, their mortgage, right. And so you know, they've got digital loan docs that are all done by DocuSign and now the state government form, does it need to be printed and signed, you know, wet signature? I think the conveyances had a document for the stamp duty. I think it was that needed to be signed wet signature that no longer needs to be signed. So I think that the whole process is kind of no longer printing documents and it cannot be done via DocuSign. So, you know, I, we're seeing that it's making the whole loan process much quicker and you know, much easier for customers rather than meeting up, sending it in an express post, et cetera. So I can definitely see that whole process, you know, being much faster.

Veronica Morgan: I want to sit on the property. You know, when I was a sales agent, somebody actually paid cash first time, or the only time my 20 years in property that I've actually come across an absolute proper cash buyer. And we settled in six days. It was without all the mortgage documents. And that, that whole part is that I guess that's sort of an indication I was some years back, but I'm an indication of taking the banks out of the equation mind you, they would have had to pay the mortgage out of course of the vendor. Cause I don't think very rarely do I come across a vendor that doesn't have a mortgage. But all of these things to be,

Chris Bates: It's actually one of the things you're right, actually that does take some time because you know, banks are in no rush to action, a discharge form. And so you know, sometimes sellers can get themselves caught out because you know, they potentially be a bit lax on sending that discharge form and banks will take a couple of weeks to kind of action that sometimes. So that's definitely something that we see delay sediment where we're ready as a buyer we're ready to go. But the seller hasn't for example, forgotten to send a discharge form,

Veronica Morgan: How annoying

Chris Bates: Oh, that's right. Because it's you know, we're ready to go pics and everything. It says, it's ready to go. For example. And you know, the person's booked them, removal us, et cetera. And then we find it falls over. Cause the seller hasn't done something. So you're right. It can definitely be a huge pain. What are some of the, I noticed that when there was initially pixel launch that there was some taping issues that I guess came out well, how are they sort of, you know, they all kind of been sorted now, what were some of the issues that you found kind of going digital? Right.

Lisa Dowie: Yeah, I guess most of the issues were, were really around building the network at a right, so that everybody that wanted to use the platform could, and I think what we really did and I think probably a hallmark of our success has been bringing the industry together. So even though lawyers and conveyances, you know, often settled in paper, they had often never really met each other often. They would outsource the actual settlement settlement agents who would go meet up in the filmer room. So we've done a lot of work in bringing the industry together. We even in the banks as well, the major four banks have worked really closely together. It's not often that you see them in a room sharing

Lisa Dowie: Their best practices around how they adopted Pixar into their organizations, how they got better and better at have they got more efficient. Then we also bought the banks together with the lawyers and conveyances, because as you rightly mentioned before, Veronica, I think you mentioned, you've heard that the banks caused the delay. Practitioners would say that banks will say the practitioner's caused the delays of getting them all together in groups. In various States, we ran these industry forums and best practice groups where they could all talk about their interest, you know, their issues or what they were seeing or what they wanted to see improved and really allowed the industry to actually solve those together because Pixar, we are in the middle as the facilitator of the transaction, but we recognized that we wanted the industry to come together and work out better ways of doing things, how we could get quicker, how we could ensure that people weren't waiting for another party to do their activity. So I think that's been how we sort of address those initial feeding issues. And it's been wonderful to see, I've seen practitioners, who've been settling deals together. I had a experience in South Australia at the end of last year where they've been settling matters together for 20 years and lived in Adelaide and had never met each other face to face, ended up meeting each other at a PEXA event, which I thought was quite ironic that a digital platform, you know, the idea that connectedness is already that one,

Veronica Morgan: What happens though, if someone's buying a property or selling a property and their lawyer doesn't use it, but everybody else in the process

Lisa Dowie: Using the banks, using it, the other lawyers using it, does that mean the whole thing falls over? They have to, I have to go to pipe up. That would yes. But often what we see is which is really great. And particularly amongst the lawyer community, is that they will really try and encourage the other party to join the PEXA platform if they haven't already and I will offer to help them through their first transaction. So would be wonderful to see sort of the comradery that has ensued across the industry, but also it's important for probably your listeners to know that various States have also said what they call compliance States, where they are actually not accepting paper transactions any longer. So that is the case in new South Wales, Victoria, very recently in South Australia, actually from the 3rd of August and Western Australia are in those positions. So they are, you know, winding out and phasing out paper transactions in those States.

Veronica Morgan: That's quite interesting because I would imagine that if, if say a lawyer that really doesn't do much property, but you know, might find themselves go, Oh yeah, I can do your conveyancing for their mate or whatever, as she starts the process and halfway through sediment periods, Oh, I'm going to have to get you another lawyer. I mean, I could imagine that happening because I know that I've dealt with a few over the years that absolutely have no idea about property Lovingly. So actually, but there just seems to be this thing that arc events. Yeah.

Lisa Dowie: Yeah. I agree. And a real misconception that's for sure. And I think you know, as we touched on earlier, we'll say less than that, less of that over time, we have actually seen the emergence of almost like a settlement agents. So there are firms that have set themselves up specifically to take work from other lawyers or, or who don't want to do the property transaction. And they can sort of, they have the initial consultation with their client, the buyer or seller, and then can pass the matter for the digital settlement to occur on PEXA via them. So that's an emergence of sort of a new law firm. If you like that, we've now seen in this digital era,

Veronica Morgan: If you like, what you're hearing here, please share this episode with others, you feel would benefit. And while you're at it, why not leave us an iTunes review five stars, please. Every review helps make it easier for other people to find us and hear what our amazing guests have to say. We love hearing your questions and we're planning more listener Q and a episodes. Please send your questions in. You can send them via the website, which is the elephant in the room.com today. You or directly via email to questions@theelephantintheroom.com

Chris Bates: Because of online players. And, you know, you know, there's lots of people online saying you can do it all included for nine 90, et cetera. And you know, is a competing with the sort of cheaper players out there. And, you know, they want to, they've got to run a profitable business, et cetera. So if you're saving them time doing a lot of the, the backend sort of situation and you're allowing them to kind of, I guess, run much more profitable businesses by reducing their time.

Lisa Dowie: Definitely our, one of the biggest benefits we see is the time saving aspect for lawyers and conveyances. And we really do hope that they spend that time saving on interacting more with their clients. Cause that I think is the best way to try to have repeat business building relationships with your clients. And also then working on the business rather than in the business is something that we definitely have seen happen as well. So there is you know, varying different price points when it comes through what people offer and it varies greatly by state and it varies by, you know, lawyers and conveyancers, I think the best advice for your listeners is to do the research, you know, have a look at their social media, look for Google reviews, I think is a great area. I think this, you know, the social media and digital environment means that we have plenty of access to information about the businesses that we, you know, that we choose to engage with.

Chris Bates: Yeah. And I mean, even just to check in the contracts, I might have sure. It's something for you, Veronica, you need to do it sort of fast sometimes, right? Like property this morning. And you know, you need to take action on it today almost. And you know, if a conveyance is bogged down in just trying to organize a few settlements, you know, are they going to really look at the contract, you know, in the not enough detail or do you find that Veronica is sometimes being an issue, just getting that speed?

Veronica Morgan: The, the actual issue is not so much people being tied up sort of doing settlements, but actually if they're using a lawyer that spends a bit of time in court, so if they're in court, there's no way they can step out to at a contract. So Property specialists and conveyances who you know, really do focus on being available are fantastic. And even, even on a Saturday, you know what I mean? It's like buying property at auction and you've got a question then, and you can't get hold of your conveyance or your lawyer. Then that sort of means you've got to go blind and you're buying something unconditionally as well. So,

Chris Bates: Or even the 66 w right.

Veronica Morgan: Well, you have to have that issued by the lawyer or the combine. So in new South Wales, so it's just a new South Wales phenomenon. And yeah, I mean, if you want to buy a property prior to watching and it's competitive and you're given the opportunity to compete for instance, and your lawyer is not, not available and you can't get them to look at the contract adviser on the contract and then give you that certificate to wipe the cooling off period, then yeah. You're behind the eight ball you're gonna miss out on the property if there really is that other buyer there. For sure. But I'm curious to think Lisa, I mean, look, monopoly is never really good for consumers and pics is the only player in this space, right? So surely you would think competition is needed and somewhat inevitable, but it does also sound like the barrier to entry must be enormous.

Lisa Dowie: Look, we have always felt that competition would come in this space and fees. We competed with paper based processes. So competition, and that's probably one of the most formidable competitors. I think that we have dealt with, to be honest.

Veronica Morgan: So you've got legislation saying you've got cutoff dates, so that won't be effective as of what date,

Lisa Dowie: So that those rules took a long time to come into place. And the States only did that once they had confidence that the market has started to make the move, that the system was reliable and scalable. So, you know, from a competitor point of view, there is competition on the horizon in this space. I think I'm looking at the barriers for entry to something that governments doing also. And from a PEXA point of view, we welcome competition. We recognize that competition is good for us because it ensures that we're really focused on continuing to be better and better. And to ensure that our platform is meeting the needs of our members. We know that competition is good for industry because people naturally want choice on myself. Anyone I do business with as well, you know, it's something that I always go, but we also know that it should be good for buyers and sellers because it ensures that continuous innovation occurs in this space and that their values are pick the holes, but firmly. So we're very open and welcome competition that comes into this area.

Chris Bates: So just on that, I mean, what are some of the things that are on the kind of product roadmap to come? I mean, I was just downloaded the PEXA key app this morning. I forget to use it. Cause I haven't, apparently I need to be invited to use it or something you know, with the transaction. So, but I mean, what are some of the things you can see coming that are really going to change the game a little bit?

Lisa Dowie: Yeah, it was great to see Chris that you're already onto PEXA key. Cause that is probably one of our most new as an exciting innovations that we have come up with this app for buyers and to Be able to use. But really Pixar is focused on now that we have everybody using the platform, we're really passionate and committed to receiving feedback from our members. Because as I mentioned, we really are just the enabler and the facilitator of the transaction. So now that we've got so many people using the platform, the data that we can capture, we're really committed to ensuring that their experience is the best possible experience they can have. So we have many channels where our lawyers conveyance hasn't banks provide us with feedback. For example, last year we received 14,000 pieces of feedback from our network around things that they either loved about the system or things that they wanted to see differently. And last year we implemented about 260 odd enhancements to the platform which 88% of those came from feedback from our members. So the platform is going to continue to get better and better things that we're working on. And something, I know that the practitioners are lawyers and conveyancers that keen to see is what we call consider workflow. So how can we build in automation and smart into the pixel platform that take away some of the more administrative actions that lawyers and conveyances might need to do, you know, reduce the number of clicks that people do within the platform. So making it much more streamlined and looking for opportunities to automate things again, create more time efficiencies for our members,

Veronica Morgan: Just back to the competition question for a minute. So I would presume other entrants into the market are going to have to bring their own platforms, right? So What would, you know, what would happen if I'm buying a property? A my lawyer is using PEXA and I'm buying it from somebody and The vendor's lawyers using a different system at all. The banks for that matter are presuming the banks would then have to actually be able to use all systems. How can that, you know, what would be the challenges there and how has that been thought through?

Lisa Dowie: So this is something that the industry is currently looking at as we speak and pics areas heavily involved. And it's what a term that is often used, which is called interoperability. So how could multiple elbows? And I think that's an important part of the equation. I think building a model that allows for not just to, because I do awfully often is, you know, very similar to a monopoly. So allowing for multiple elders to be able to connect with one another and exchange data, that's the term that interoperability represents. So there's a number of industry participants, working groups that are occurring to work out. And it's not an easy scenario to think through. When you think about the amount of connections, the integrations with land registry, state revenue office, the reserve bank of Australia, all the security aspects that the platform has and how you ensure also though that that interoperability doesn't stifle innovation. The last thing you want is to have, you know, that you have to meet the needs of the lowest common denominator when you connect different elders. So yeah, there's a lot to work through. Unfortunately I don't, I don't have the answer as to how that interoperability would work, but there are a number of industry experts that are looking at it at the moment,

Veronica Morgan: But it's certainly not something that you sort of try and do shut the door on.

Lisa Dowie: And say, we're not this we're active participants in. And I myself have attended some groups as well. Um just recently there was a ministerial forum held in new South Wales a couple of months ago, which I attended, which really conveyed Pyxis position around how supportive we are of competition and sharing what we need to, to make it happen.

Veronica Morgan: What sort of legit, what sort of laws have had to have been changed to enable this? Because I think one thing with COVID, for instance, you know, every time the other federal state government comes out with some sort of initiative there's always laws that have to be changed in order to enable it. And I would imagine there's some there's some legislation that's had to going around this as well. Would that be fair to say?

Lisa Dowie: Yes, definitely. That was very early on part of the, of the process that had to be undertaken. Each state had to make legislative changes to enable a conveyancing as they call it. So to enable the fact that a lawyer or conveyancer can digitally sign on behalf of the buyer or seller is a key part of this process and legislations in each state had to be changed to make that occur act, for example, that new state to go live they'll have that legislation passed earlier this year, which enables them to be able to go live as we talked about in September this year. So yeah, a lot of work from a lot of people within governments to really make this come to life.

Chris Bates: And just on the the PEXA key sort of, can you kind of help out, cause I think a lot of our invest, our listeners are investors or they're thinking about buying a home, et cetera, or they've gone through it. And all four settlement experience, whether the, you know, the broker experience wasn't great with the bank or the conveyancing experience, what are some of the things that you think that PEXA Kay will really help sort of the buyer or the seller better understand or have more confidence around?

Lisa Dowie: Sure. So I guess there's really two sort of key elements that we're looking to address with PEXA key. So one is firstly around a security, so I'm sure you would have heard that email phishing scams are very much targeting the property industry as a whole for VCs where communications, whether it be between a broker and their client, a real estate agent, their client lawyers, and conveyancers where bank account details are repatriated and changed. And then obviously scammers getting access funds.

Chris Bates: So we actually with one of our clients an absolute horrible story, and it wasn't. So, I mean to, and it's actually a really, it was a huge learning and of the risks of sort of cyber sort of attacks basically. And you know, it was a client who bought a basically a terrace who has a two to $3 million and, you know, they had to put in the, which was over $600,000. And they were using a bank that didn't allow them to debit that shortfall out of a offset account. All the banks are pretty much there now, but there was a few stragglers that are kind of now there. And you know, basically a couple of days before the sediment, you know, the conveyancer had sent to the customer do you want to send it, send the shortfall to my trust account?

Chris Bates: And what actually happened is like you were talking about someone who was watching the conveyances email, just hiding in the background. And once that email got sent, they sent another email to it, to my client. Now my client, you know, extremely busy lots going on. And you know, he's done lots in property as well. So he's confidence. He's kind of really high around these sort of things. And he just took the, the email from the conveyancer on face value and basically trance, so that you've got two emails. The first one sent it to this account and the other email said, no, don't send to this account, send it to this account. And that's what was confusing for him. So he sent the money to the new accountant and basically someone would obviously sent that from the conveyancers email and had deleted the email after they sent it.

Chris Bates: So the conveyancer had no idea this was happening. And basically it was over $600,000 that went missing into a fraud fraudulent account. And it was a really horrible situation because the customer sent that money from four different banks. So, and it was a yeah, it was a, it was a, was the outcome for the client is the settlement got delayed. It was like three or four weeks. And it was one of those situations, Veronica, where it was in between two houses and I had to go into short term accommodation. And did they get the money back? I got it all back, but it, you know, we had all the banks freezing the money and it was you know, we were calling heads of the banks to get everyone involved. And it was a, it was a, probably a big case and some of the banks changed their policies after it, but it was one of those things where you just don't think those things can happen, but when it happens, it's like, wow. And unfortunately the customer got all their money back, right?

Veronica Morgan: Oh, better. Recently. She a buyer's agent, I think it was a buyer's agent might have been anyway. Someone I know that basically has a business where they invoice their clients, they'd send out some invoices. There was a, you know, a Fisher out there looking at their emails, they picked up these email addresses and then sent a follow up email basically saying, yes, we know we just changed our bank account. We just went to these eight invoices, please forward the money to this account. Instead busy clients paid the money. Then the buyer's agents starting to chase them and go, you're gonna pay your bill. And it's like, I did, I followed your instructions, never picked up the phone and go, Oh, that's a bit odd that you would send a separate email. Know what I mean? We just sort of do things and then think afterwards. So yeah, I think it's becoming more common by the sounds of it.

Lisa Dowie: Yeah. And I think you have to see the property market and, you know, the asset class more than $7 trillion in Australia, it's a huge magnet for cyber criminals to be looking at. And as you touched on, you know, often things are happening quickly. People are shorting time. I think the criminals are really praying on that. And knowing that, you know, people don't pay any attention to some of these, whether it's an email that comes through that they should. So I guess what picks a key is enabling is, and it often can be, it can be the, the surplus of funds. So also the proceeds of sale when you sell your property, if you don't have a mortgage, there are huge amounts of money that are going to people's bank accounts. So what picks a key does eat, gives the buyer or seller the ability to directly input their bank account details into the app. They confirm them. They're obviously the ones that know their details better than anyone else, and also going to get the details, right. And then those from the app.

Veronica Morgan: Let me, if they don't, I think is that, is that the helium friends there?

Lisa Dowie: Well, it's the only one they're doing you would imagine. And I know myself, even when I do internet banking, I always double check triple check before you hit enter, but what makes it key? Does it enables those bank account details to then be directly and securely put into the PEXA platform directly? So there's no hands on the keys. No one else has to touch them. They go straight in and fix the key app. It has a guarantee that Joe is so confident with the security that exists with that app, that that is guaranteed to be secure. So that's really one of the huge benefits to the security aspect. And the other one really is just the transparency. So there is some information in the app that tells you about what to generally expect happens at settlement. Cause a lot of people aren't aware there are checklists in there and there's a checklist for a buyer and a checklist seller for things that you should be thinking about up and coming to settlement. Obviously there's a countdown to the settlement date and time, but then really the exciting one is that you get notified immediately once settlement has occurred. So, and that's, you know, something that buyers and sellers from research that we've done have really wanted a greater transparency around what's happening. And when it occurs,

Veronica Morgan: It's also around getting the keys and the actual physical house keys, because that's the sort of this weed limbo land settles, the checks go out, it's still done. And then cycle, can I get my keys or no, not until the order and the agent's been served by a solicitor. And so waiting, waiting, waiting, and quite often in the olden days, you know, when the solicitor would have to go to all the sediment agent would go to the meeting to actually do the settlement. They have to physically get back to the office in order to serve that, that order. And, you know, and particularly if you've got your, or your belongings in a truck, you know, waiting for that as similar to any settlement, you know, I come on and give me my keys. It's a bit clunky. I'm, I'm, I'm curious. So, you know, you guys, how long, how long has PEXA been around now, must be about what four years or something.

Lisa Dowie: No, you'd be surprised to hear. It'll be 10 years in September. And that's from like inception around when the first idea, the first employee, so to speak the CEO at the time was I'm on board, but there was, you know, a number of years where the technology was actually designed and built and tested before it actually got out into the hands. So it's probably been about four or five years that it's been actually in use.

Veronica Morgan: Yeah. I remember some lawyers that were some early adopters sort of coming into our offices and telling us all about it. They're all very excited, which is quite funny. But the, the I'm interested though, in the transaction data you must have now because you know, before, if you wanted to find out about actual transactions, you've got to go land titles offices, or you've got to go to which takes, there's a delay in that, right. Or you'd have to go to individual banks and then, and then you're not getting a capture, you know, a whole city or a state or whatever. So because there's, there's been a lot of, you know, media around about list, low listings of late. And I'm, I've been questioning the, the, I guess the validity of talking about listings because a lot of properties are transacting off market for instance, and we don't know what that proportion is, but if we looked at transaction data, we looked at listings data, we actually have an accurate view then of how much property is being transacted off market. That's just one example of what you could do with the data, but it's that sort of information now coming through or is that data now coming, you know, getting used by picture in any way.

Lisa Dowie: Yeah. We're certainly looking at it and I guess it's become a lot more topical during covert, as everyone has sort of a heightened sense of alert, wanting to know what's happening in the property market. Think it's important. We do have 75% of the property, so we don't have necessarily the full picture. And often we do look to try to couple our data sources. That's all. And it's definitely clear that the number of listings are down. We're actually looking at that from our point of view, we can see that, you know, there's 50,000 less listings in the first half of 2020 compared to the average of the prior three years, but that's something, but I think it also, yes, correct, but it's also very different state by state and we've been looking at sort of pre COVID. So what we're seeing now in the various different States, and it's obviously Victoria, as you would expect, we're definitely starting to see a softening in Victoria.

Lisa Dowie: However, Western Australia for example, is definitely doing much better than it was before. COVID-19 really well. And I think I heard an economist say the other day that, you know, the economy's following the virus at the moment. So, and I think that's definitely the same, what we're seeing in data as well, but we're trying to use our data also to help other industry participants. So we are keen in sharing some of our insights with members. We fill in registries, for example, so that they can manage their workforces and the flow of information that's coming to them as well.

Chris Bates: If we could get that data on the settlement day out there even if it's aggregate data, it would definitely help people to have a much more finger on the pulse.

Lisa Dowie: Yeah, I agree. And it's something we're definitely keen to work with our, the industry stakeholders as well around our daughter and how it can be shared more broadly.

Veronica Morgan: Also, I'd like to come back to you so that, you know, Australia wide listings has been 50,000 down this year versus the average of the previous three years at the same period. What about transactions now? I, I get that you obviously you're growing your platform so that the take up of it will maybe distort that bit. And does, if you've got 75% now being you being, I'm being honest, The platform then, Oh, sorry. 75% of settlements being done through the platform and that's statistically significant. Right. So how does your data in terms of transactions compare with listings data and I mean for this period rather than sort of looking back yeah,

Lisa Dowie: It is fall and you're very correct that the growth that we're currently seeing in Queensland and South Australia does dispel it, the numbers somewhat, but we are seeing a follow, a similar pattern to listings at the moment when we look at transactions. So whilst there are a lot of off market activities happening, we think from what we can see overwhelmingly it is following the lifting trend. But as I mentioned, some States doing much better than others and new South Wales, even given, you know, a huge amount of volume that happens there is relatively stable. What we've seen now pre COVID and post COVID is definitely starting to stabilize in new South Wales.

Lisa Dowie: So I don't think there is as much doom and gloom in the property market than we often see in the headlines. I think the main thing and what we're also looking at is just the uncertainty of what's going to happen over the next few months when we start to see some of those fiscal stimulus start to be wound back and some of those mortgage holidays, et cetera come to an end, don't keep all those elements, what sort of impact that's going to have. We haven't got any indicators within our platform that we can see any of that just yet.

Chris Bates: So if you've got a probably Dumbo forest laser.

Lisa Dowie: Pretty Dumbo, yes. I think I've got two. If I could one, I guess I'm a very common one. And we did touch on it earlier just around the people and the estimating, the need to get all of their affairs, their documents, all of the detail in order, because I think a delayed settlement, a lot of people don't understand that they could incur some significant Austin, the magnitude of hundreds of thousands of dollars at times, depending on, you know, the property value, the contract that you signed, penalty, interest rates that could be incurred. There's lots of different scenarios that happen in different States. So I think being organized, choosing the right team of professionals is really important to work with the communication element, really important to keep whether it's your broker, your lawyer, your conveying to your bank, keeping them in the loop of what's happening on your end, paying attention to the details.

Lisa Dowie: So, as we talked about whether they're digital versions of documents or paper, making sure that buyers and sellers are actually looking at those details, looking for any anomalies prior to settlement, of course, settling on PEXA if you have any opportunity to have. And that decision is always going to improve that process, but also playing nice with the other side of the transaction, because you never know what you might need to ask for some sort of extension or what it might be. So I think that's a really common one as a good point, that it was something a little less common and more obscure and something that I hadn't really come across, a great deal to working at Pixar is around title insurance and the fact that a lot of people don't take it up and like many insurances, we often look at it, but you know, sort of discount the need for it, but you can and really help you out in some really costly scenario.

Lisa Dowie: So what all insurance is it basically God's the buyer against any loss that they could encourage you to the title or property defects that might occur. And normally they are preexisting and not often known by the buyer at the time of purchase. And I am aware of an example that happened in Victoria, in Ringwood, where a particular buyer purchased a property. It was about 30 years old at the time of purchase situated on a sloping block. The house looked to be in really good condition. And it had been previously renovated about 15 or 20 years prior to the purchaser buying it. Then they'd been in at home for about seven years and decided that they wanted to do some renovations themselves. So they approached the council getting new renovations. And then when the council came out to have a look at that, they observed as previous works, had been carried out to the property, which had not had approval.

Lisa Dowie: And they actually created a sub floor area excavated under the house and removed dumps, created habitable rooms in this space and store rooms. And the council then issued a notice that said that the buyers had to actually demolish or rectify those unapproved words, cutting a long story short. It was about $270,000 worth of work in value that occurred. And this particular instance, they did have a title insurance premium, which cost them $400. So that's not a small amount, I guess when you're thinking about it, but when something goes wrong, that's obviously when those types of insurance plays and something I must've been, I didn't even know about existed. So it's good to actually for buyers to talk about that with their lawyer or conveyancer,

Chris Bates: It's a reproduction Deere. Actually, we should actually do an episode on it, say you've given us a, a new topic, which is great.

Lisa Dowie: And I know some experts in the space, so I can put you in touch with some, if you like, do,

Veronica Morgan: Yeah, this would be a really good topic. Yeah,

Chris Bates: Yeah, yeah. And the first one you're right. I think you know, just getting all your documents and just taking it quite serious. And in working with your broker and your. Conveyancer and just staying on the ball yeah, because you know, sometimes you might want to bring the settlement forward or you might, you know, just, just stay on the ball with it because you know, those six weeks do fly by. And you know, the whole process, we are much more stressful, very fast if something's not going. Right. So yeah. We've seen that quite a few times where, you know, potentially the clients. Yeah. It's all right. We've got six weeks and then all of a sudden it's eight days before, and then they have a work trip that comes out of the blue and they'll tell us, or they go on holidays and they don't tell anyone about it. And so yeah, it's, it's sometimes that six weeks, it's very stressful for all the parties involved by just not being on top of your paperwork.

Veronica Morgan: I heard a quote once around, you know, risk really is just a measurement of knowledge. And I think that really resonated with me in regards to buyers and sellers, just being aware of what's happening and where you can actually have an influence to ensure the best outcome. That's actually really interesting, I'm saying, cause you know that you don't know what you don't know and that therein lies there is so much property. Yeah. Thank you so much, Lisa, that was a very interesting and informative chat. And we wanted to sort of, yeah. Dig a little deeper into actually what happens in this space, because as I said at the header at the outset, you know, God is an agent, this is a sales agent. I had bugger all ID. You know, it's only really been in recent years that I've even got a glimpse of it. And obviously as a mulch broke, you'd have more of an insight into what goes on in settlement. Chris, but I think most buyers have got no idea. So thank you so much for sharing your insights today. Thanks for coming on. Thank you, bud. My pleasure.

Chris Bates: We want to make you a better elephant rider and this week's elephant rider training is

Veronica Morgan: Let's pick up on that conversation around title insurance and the sorts of things that title insurance might protect you from. Lisa gave the example of somebody who bought a property that had had an authorized works done by the previous owners and author. You and I were talking about boundary issues, right? So there were certain things that if they're in a contract, they actually give you some level of confidence that you will not have those issues. But obviously title insurance is, is, is protecting you for the great unknown. But these are things that we do look for in contracts. And they are also things that we see people aren't so bothered about when it's a hot market and when the market slows down or they're very bothered about. So for instance, an occupation certificate. So if you're buying a property, that's been renovated at some point, or it's been built from scratch.

Veronica Morgan: You'd want to see that it has an occupation certificate in the contract now a lot don't and then that's always a question I would ask, I would say, you know, why isn't it there? Where is it? And often the vendors have to go scrambling forward or they might have to go to council and get the thing issue in the, you know, issued or go to a private certifier. But without it there's no actual assurance or any, even then, it's not a guarantee of, of everything by the way. But without it, there's nothing to reassure me that those, that property has been built according to what's been approved by council. And then also you could have a building in sorry, a building certificate, which is another document that councils can or can be ordered from councils. And that basically says that all council says everything on this fine.

Veronica Morgan: And you know, you've got sort of like a seven year guarantee. I think it is that you know, they won't, the council can't come along and ask you to remove anything. So there are things that can be requested and asked for. But having said that sometimes with an occupation certificate, for instance, could be issued and then works be done afterwards. So it looks like it's all been done according to what's been approved, but subsequent to that stuff's been done and you haven't realized.And then on the boundary now, unless there's a survey in the contract, you don't really have any real confidence that the boundary is exactly where the fences are. For instance, you just make this assumption and you'll have a floor plan that the agent may have done, but that's no guarantee that that's the boundary. He laughing in the background there, Chris the sewer diagram. Some people look at that and think that's where the boundaries, they might look at the deposited plan and think that's where the boundary is. But the reality is that the, the best thing to, to give you certainty of where the boundaries is a survey, but also whether or not your buildings are all fences are encroaching on the neighbors.

Veronica Morgan: All, whether there's are encroaching on yours. So there are additional things that you can request. Now, if they don't have them, they're at cost. It could be your cost of the vendor's cost. And once again, going back to, if it's a hot market or a slow market, if it's hot market, the vendor's going to say bugger off. You want that you pay for it. If it's a slow market, the vendor may be struggling to sell the property. And you say, you know what? I'm not going to buy it unless there's a survey. So your competitive or your ability, I guess, to request these these documents to give you more certainty throughout the negotiation process really does depend on the market conditions, but you should definitely be aware that they are extra things that you can ask for. Another thing I, I would look at too, is that when a property has been renovated extensively renovated, if he can get hold of the plans that were approved from council, and you know, you can go back into archives.

Veronica Morgan: Now that's going to take you 21 days if it has to go to our cars, but sometimes depending on how long they get, yeah, they keep some stuff online. Now that's been up to five years and in some cases I've actually seen it for longer than five years. So that information may be available online. You can actually download the plans and compare it to what the floor plan is that you're buying and think, hang on a minute, there's a bathroom there that wasn't there in the approved plans. So there are, there are some ways that you can actually get a hint of that and a good building inspector will also be able to suggest to you, look, I'm not sure this is decode as well.

Chris Bates: That's an easy one. You said about online. I mean, I've seen that before where it said the row terraces or cottages or something like that. And you know, it's a two bed and you want to renovate it to a three bed, then the neighbor's done it. And so you can kind of go online and see their plans and what they've done. And there's lots you can just by searching and playing around with sort of the council portal with neighboring properties and other good little tip to, to see what's possible.

Veronica Morgan: Be careful though, because development where they call it local environment plans and development control plans can change. Sorry, if the neighbor got it approved, you know, 10 years ago, you, it's not an automatic assumption that you would also get the same thing approved.

Chris Bates: Oh, a hundred percent. I think the wildlife around flow pans is you know, I don't know that actually the legality of it all with if they can do it. But yeah, for example, a client bought a property just this morning. And the property went live on the weekends and there was 50 people through this property. And he went there, they were trying to buy a premarket last week and and said, no, we've got to do an open cause they want to see how the markets sort of, I'm going to take the property and how hard it's going to be. And they went to the start of the open and all the way to the end of the open. So they saw everyone arrive and everyone leave. And it was interesting. I chatted him yesterday and said, Oh yeah, what's your thoughts?

Chris Bates: And he said, well, most people walked out quite disappointed because the agent said it was a four bed. And it wasn't a four bed. It's, it's a three bed plus like a dungeon. And there's an, it says three bathrooms, but that's not a bathroom that you'd want to use. And you just said, and then also the, you know, the, I mean, not in that scenario, but he said, you know, the floor plan kind of, you know, people would expect one thing and then they go and they see another thing. So I think this is just the thing with those floor plans that can be super deceiving. And I don't know whether the measurements are always right. So, you know, I think you've got to say your own

Chris Bates: Tape measure. You might look like a bit of an idiot sometimes trying to tape measuring things. And people think you're doing the cats in the bed and things like that, but just, just check the room is as big as they think I'm on the floor plan. I've definitely seen it being substantially off. And if you were thinking it's a three by three and it's a two by 2.2 meters by three meters. Well that changes that room dynamic completely. It's no longer a double room. And yeah. So just be careful,

Veronica Morgan: I would say a couple of things there, first of all, don't take out your tape measure during an open house. It just encourages other buyers to get excited you know, do it in a private inspection. The other thing, the other thing I would say is you know, measure your own stride because my shot is pretty much bang on a meter and that is very useful. I don't have to take out my tape measure. And, and the other thing too, is that

Chris Bates: Again, in the recent years or shorter nowadays,

Veronica Morgan: I've been, I've been practicing my stride. I'm keeping it stride feet. The look, the other thing too, is that absolutely right. Those dimensions are not necessarily a reliable and you know, you can see, and I see this quite a lot with apartments, for instance, because you see apartments generally have the same footprint in, in one building that is, and so you can look at it when you can doing a price comparison and look at the different floor plans done by different agents and the different dimensions on exactly the same size rooms. So it's very unreliable.