Episode 144 | Making better sales agents (not genetically modified) | Tanja Lee, TMJ Coaching

Helping agents become transparent and more trustworthy, and how can vendors find them.
While we search for the secret sauce on what makes a premium sales agent we find Tanja Lee, who believes we should flip the switch on how agents sell; leaving the egoic culture behind for trustworthiness and transparency. Tanja Lee started off as a vendor looking for their perfect agent, and now is one of the leading leadership development coaches in the real estate industry, coaching some of the top agents in the nation. Beyond becoming a better agent this episode has a plethora of helpful topics for vendors looking to sell and buyers looking to find their next property.
Here’s what we covered:

• What are sales agents doing to win you over?

• Why do some agents fly and some flop when it comes to communication?

• What should vendors be doing to get the most out of their sale?

• How many sales agents should you speak to before finding the right fit?

• What should you look for in sales agents?

• How to significantly increase your conversion rate as a sales agent.

• What ways can vendors get better results with an agent?

RELEVANT EPISODES:
Episode 109 | Amy Stead
Episode 110 | Veronica Morgan
Episode 125 | Damien Cooley

GUEST LINKS:
TMJ Coaching - Meet Tanja
Home Buyer Academy - Freecourse

HOST LINKS:
Looking for a Sydney Buyers Agent? www.gooddeeds.com.au
Work with Veronica: https://linktr.ee/veronicamorgan

Looking for a Mortgage Broker? www.wealthful.com.au
Work with Chris: hello@wealthful.com.au

Send in your questions to: questions@theelephantintheroom.com.au

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: 
Please note that this has been transcribed by half-human-half-robot, so brace yourself for typos and the odd bit of weirdness…
This episode was recorded in August, 2020.

Veronica Morgan: Have you ever had an agent tell you that another buyer is coming in with an offer in the next day or so? So you better put your best foot forward. How about an agent who after you've made an offer, asked you whether you wanted to be informed of other offers or be happy to let it go because that's your best and final price. I bet you felt snookered. Some agents practice this dialogue day in and day out. Others mean it when they say these things, but how can you tell the difference?

Veronica Morgan: Welcome to the elephant in the room. This is the podcast where we love to talk about the big things in property that never usually get talked about. I'm Veronica Morgan, real estate agent buyers, agent cohost of Foxtel's location, location, location, Australia, and author of auction ready. And I'm Chris Bates mortgage broker. Before we get started, I need to let you know that nothing we say on here can be taken as personal advice. We always recommend you engage the services of a professional. Don't forget that you can access the transcript for this episode on the website, as well as download our free fall or forecast report, which experts can you trust to get it right? The elephant in the room.com did I use,

Veronica Morgan: We started this podcast back in 2018 because we wanted to investigate the different ways in which property buyers are influenced often, without them even knowing sales agents, we're high on our list of people to interview and many were incredibly Frank in revealing their tactics, but where do they learn this stuff? How do they develop the skills to influence buyers? What's the difference between sleazy sales tactics, a special kind of voodoo or the Mark of a professional agent today, we're going to get the perspective of one leadership and mindset coach who has made waves in the real estate industry. Tanja Lee started her coaching business in 2015. And one of those rare people in this industry who didn't come from this industry, the Genesis of her business lies in her own experience of being underwhelmed client of a real estate agent. Recently I've observed a few agent listing presentations and one in particular stood out a young sharp agent, regaled me with examples of how he uses the smoke and mirrors of highly practiced dialogue to create urgency with buyers. He was cocky and I was nauseas because it dawned on me that he's a disciple of a pretty popular movement in real estate circles. So we reached out to Tanja and asked her she'd come and talk to us about the differences she sees in the waste work to influence

Tanja Lee: Buyers and affect sales outcomes. Thank you for joining us Tanja. That is an outstanding intro. Wow. The special kind of very data. I love it. Thank you so much, both of you, Veronica and Chris for the opportunity and yeah. You just completely recreated my experience of being a vendor back in 2014 or actually 2017. So yeah. Thanks for the opportunity to be here, guys. I really appreciate it.

Chris Bates: No, thank you, Tanja. I mean, you kind of made me a taken my question out of my mouth. I mean, you two, you know, you said 2015, I'm thinking that's when you started the business as well. What got you to kind of for just sort of career and try to make a positive change in the real estate?

Tanja Lee: Yeah, so, you know, Chris, I, I was just an average consumer looking to sell the family home and back in November, 2014, and, you know, we had a, we started a relationship with an agent who did, you know, it was really great. Like we were pretty uncommitted at that point. And we were just wanting to test the water and see what the value for our asset was. And he was great in the sense that he really kind of stayed sticky with us for the year and kept checking in every three months. You know, how you guys going, if you made the decision yet and we're, I'm not sure. And you know, it came to the point where like right where we're ready to rock and roll. And so we invited agent a back into the house. And as soon as we said to him, okay, we're ready to rock and roll.

Tanja Lee: His whole demeanor changed. He came back into the house. He literally kind of just walked in compendium on the dining table, sat down, pulled out the contracts, shoved it across the table and said, you know, so guys, here's the, here's the marketing schedule. Here's the commission structure sign here. And it looks, I don't know. I said to him, agent a, you know, I said, look, thank you very much. I said we have decided to actually also get a couple of other opinions and this, this dude look to his credit. We gave him all the signs that he was our guy, but he definitely did not graduate from the lady Gaga poker face school, because he was obviously disappointed, which in that, which in that moment told me he was attached to the outcome and a little tip, little tip to agents. You don't eat it.

Tanja Lee: You ain't done until you, you like when the authority is signed, you can probably relax your belly and Saya with the relief of, okay, you're contracted for the privilege to sell this person's biggest asset. So he was attached to the outcome. It was really more about him than it was about us. And fair enough, you know, so we then brought in agent B and I liked her because on paper, she had evidence that she was effectively negotiating the highest value for the properties in the area. Big mistake that she was making though was every time she asked us a question and we answered it, particularly my husband she caught him off. She kept cutting him. She wouldn't listen. She was pushing her agenda. And when she left, I said, what do you think is I don't like it. I'm like why he goes, cause she just wouldn't let me speak.

Tanja Lee: And then agency came in and here's what I call Switzerland. He was masterful at matching and mirroring, which is a neuro-linguistic technique of really effectively building rapport. He just really met us where we were, he put his stuff on the dining table, but what I noticed guys was he kind of shoved it to the side, lent into the table and said, so tell me about you guys. And what would you love to see happen here? And what I find interesting is we had a relationship with agent a for over a year and we met this guy and within 20 minutes we signed up with him. So it's all about your presence, your authenticity, and losing yourself in service of the client and not becoming attached to the outcome. That experience had me really inquire into why to some agents fly and others flop when it comes to building connection and asking permission to sell people's biggest asset.

Tanja Lee: It's a massive transaction. So I just did about three and a half months of research. I started to uncover what the biggest problems in the industry where I've found a couple of pockets. I was doing entrepreneurial leadership coaching at the time I was looking for a niche to, to position my business in. And the more I dug, the more I found that I wasn't the only consumer that was disappointed. And there were some pretty significant gaps in leadership mindset and customer service that I found and went, you know what? I can, I can jump in and add some value here. And that was very interesting. And that was six years ago.

Veronica Morgan: And who you are at, what was so interesting about that story? Is that the sense of entitlement from the guy who'd been doing the right thing though? You know, that's what you're taught follow on, unfortunate in the followup, you know, do all the right things, work that database, show those people that you're, you're there and value and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like crunch time. It's like, then you see the metal of the room You saw what he was really about.

Tanja Lee: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that, that's the thing, you know, you, you mentioned in your intro that this essence of, well, what does constitute like a good operator and what doesn't. And for me, there's two types of flavors. There's the transactional agent. That's just listing commission, listing commission, you know, next. And then there's the relational agent. And, and, you know, we know from the Roy Morgan image of trusted professions, that real estate agents, particularly in Australia have been the third least trusted profession in our country for the last five years. And that's, that's unfortunate because as many chest beating Cowboys and cowgirls that are out there, there's also some big hearted game-changing agents who are really there to support people in this process. And I think it's a shame that those great agents get tainted with the same brush of the ones that do a poor job.

Chris Bates: So mr. Switzerland did he maintain his Level of perfection throughout the whole process, as in, did he keep going upon staying true to his word, being that relationship sort of the trusted advisor, or did the conflicts, or did the transaction, or did he fall back to kind of the position that a lot of other agents are back in and transactional?

Tanja Lee: Great question. What ended up happening was we actually decided not to sell, so we, we did and he was great with us. So, you know, we had some circumstances, so we didn't get the experience of fully selling the property with him and he moved on and did other things. And it was like 10 years later that we sold. But what impressed me particularly, and this is a good insight for those that are listening, know the power of a pre-listing kit, which is just a piece of communication and engagement that you can have with a potential vendor before you meet them face to face. The thing that I appreciated was there was a high level of consistency and high standards from the moment we spoke on the phone to him sending his assistant with a little pre-listing kit with evidence of their, their market knowledge and experience, a couple of complimentary coffee vouchers that just happens to be for our local cafe, which was like, Oh, that's kind of a nice synergy. And then, you know, he's servicing the listing consultation and then, you know, we, we signed up with him and then about, I don't know, it might've been two weeks later. We're like, you know what, this we've had some stuff happen and we need to change tactic here. And he was extraordinary and, and it's no surprise. He was the number one agent in the area and had been for a good nine years with the brand that he was working with.

Chris Bates: And I mean, a lot of that comes down probably to his mindset, right. So he is probably got more of a growth slash abundance sort of mindset came across. And so when you said to him, look, we, you know, life change, we no longer want to sell. He was like, well, that's the right decision for you? I said, yeah,

Tanja Lee: Exactly. Yeah. He didn't, he didn't, I didn't, I, as I said, he was, he was, he was shocked. Like his whole face dropped on it. When we said, we're just going to get a couple of different opinions. This guy we signed up with, you know, we were like in, we signed up and and then we said, you know what? No. And, and he did not flinch Chris. He was, he was so over there with us and you're right. He had an abundance mindset. He had a service orientation, he played the long game. And that's what a relational agent does, a relational agent. Isn't there with, they're focused on their own agenda. And they understand that real estate is a marathon. It's not you know, it's not a sprint. And the most successful agents are the ones that nurture those relationships longterm, because how you treat me in that engagement will influence whether I do choose you in the future. And whether I promote you to my family and friends who were asking me if I know anyone even though we haven't, even though we haven't transacted, it was all in the way he treated us. And he was just, he was just loving. He was just real and loving and human

Veronica Morgan: Big T the big test would have been definitely when you said you're not going to sell, correct. Yeah. I actually had it in the bag properly as in the store. It sounded agreement. Yeah. It's funny. It just reminds me of a story From when I was in my selling days and yeah. And I'm, I lost the listing because I was honest about the price and those people, you know, chose another agent. They went through the whole, you know, Really demoralizing process of then being beaten around the head to be reeducated What the real price was and then fundamentally selling for what I'd suggested it would sell for anyway. Now they, they, they were one of my biggest advocates for listings off them. Yes. I basically said, don't go with that one. I should, we should have gone for, and I really missed really, really We regret not doing that. So you should do that. So, yeah. So those four, and then of course, yeah, That they told, I think that was you know, very key to me.

Tanja Lee: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And, you know, we know from the research that CoreLogic RP data have done that buyers and vendors want two key things. So those of you out there that are listening, these are the two key components when looking to choose your agent trust and transparency, they're nice big statements, but how do you establish them is showing up consistently at people, buy people, not products. They they're actually buying the agent. They're not buying the brand. They're not buying the logo. They're not buying into your sexy collateral and the color of your flags. They buy into your energy and how you, how you show up and how you treat that vendor or that buyer. And if you'd show up consistently, that's going to establish trust and transparency is what you're talking about.

Tanja Lee: Veronica going, you'd rather tell them the truth around the current value of their home or the current landscape of the market or comparable sales, or, and, and then you can lie in bed at night and be horizontal with your integrity intact and know that you're, you know, you're not trying to pull the wool over people's eyes cause we can people, here's the deal. You can smell in authenticity, a mile away and you can smell manipulation. And I think there's some of the greatest qualities that our top agent has is I'd rather you be trustworthy and transparent with me. So I know where I stand rather than be, you know, a snake charmer, just trying to get the business and then not not delivering. And then, and then the other interesting piece of that research is, and this just blows my mind 40. So when a vendor chooses an agent, the research shows that vendors typically lose 47% of their confidence in their agent of choice during the transaction.

Tanja Lee: So many what this means is many agents are great at seducing the client to get them, they get the listing and then, you know, then the things start falling through the cracks. They say, they're going to be at all the open for inspections and they're not. They send their assistant, they make mistakes on the board. They make mistakes on the, the advertising. They're not fulfilling on their promises. They're not effectively following up. And the shame about that is if I've lost 50% of my confidence in you, I'm not likely to retain you as an agent in the future. I'm definitely not going to refer you. And the most expensive part of business is finding and keeping a new client. So that means that agent has got to go and generate another 50% more business. Cause you asked me the problem

Veronica Morgan: With that though, is that the vendors or the consumer is playing their part in that game because that vendor has allowed themselves. Yes. Yeah.

Tanja Lee: Great question. You know, I know you guys are really big on revealing and illuminating the mistakes that that buyers and vendors make. And I just want to actually acknowledge you both for creating this podcast to educate all of us on what we need to be mindful of and what we need to do to protect, preserve, and conserve our biggest asset because it is the great Australian dream is we know, you know, the average is about $79,000 per annum. And the average combined income is 110. So it's, we work hard for our bricks and mortar, you know, and people want to get a good result. I think the biggest mistake that vendors and buyers make is they, they give their power away and because it's, you know, inverted commerce, it's not an industry they work in or they don't understand it.

Tanja Lee: They, you know, and I'm speaking from experience and from what I've seen over the last six years, they're not doing their own research. Now, I I've I'm I'm I wouldn't like, why would you work your booties off to get your biggest assets to then engage someone who you, you, you meet online. And then in a, you know, a one hour listing consultation, by the way, I call them listing consultations, not presentations because as a vendor, I don't want jazz hands in a sales pitch. I want to, I want a conversation I want to, I want to toss it around. I want to effectively problem solve together. So I think, I think the consumer needs to just get present to no matter what your reasons for selling or buying are, please get present to the gravity of this transaction because this will make or break the level of choice you have for your future.

Tanja Lee: And whilst you might be time, poor and tired and homeschooling, or you've lost your job or you're relocating, and you've got a lot on your plate when you give your power away to somebody else without fully understanding what's involved in the effective sale of your assets. I think that's where people make a mistake. And, you know, you can spend under a hundred bucks to get a report from core logic to have an understanding of your property. Like that alone is going to say that you are a lot of time. Consumers are savvy. Now, if someone actually does that,

Veronica Morgan: And then they're, they're sitting in front of an agent that has done exactly the same thing.

Tanja Lee: Yes. Yeah. That's a telling sign. Well, that's it. I mean, and that's the thing, unfortunately, there are very, very lazy agents out there. Do you know how many times I've gone into to have a look at properties myself and I go, I go in and you know, and I'll ask how old is the property? Why like I'm asking questions and this is the other thing, everyone listening, like ask questions, interview the agent. And you can tell by the, the way they respond, whether this is just like a, you know, a number in a deli or whether this agent absolutely knows the ins and outs of this property, and therefore can effectively articulate the highest value of this piece of real estate. So I think the biggest mistake, as I said, a couple of times is consumers. Please, please take no matter what life is throwing at you right now, take the time to invest in looking at what the real estate landscape looks like. And also take the time to research agents within your area. And there's some things that you can do to make that easy for yourself.

Chris Bates: I think it's a really good point because it's not just regarding real estate, is it it's really anything in life. If you go in there and pass, pass the Baton to a professional or a service provider or whatever it is, if you, you know, you're just basically outsourcing all your risk to someone and you, if you haven't done any due diligence on who you're selecting you know, it's just a big risk, right? You've got to come down, you know, three or four weeks later, you go, I'm going to regret that decision. But if you spent your time, you've looked around, you've checked some references, et cetera. It may still go wrong, but you're not going to regret your decision as much. And you potentially, you're going to get a better result by picking someone better. And you know, I, I say that all the time and, you know, broking financial advice. If you're going to go pick an advisor, you know, you don't just go and sign up with the first one. You, you, you know, it's a big decision. You're taking someone on for a relationship,

Tanja Lee: Correct? Correct. And you want someone that's going to work, work for you and represent you, you know, and, and, and you know, the other thing is, and as a, as a peak performance coach in the industry, one of the big things I invest my time in is, you know, this is a counterintuitive industry, like as human beings, we love certainty security, instant gratification, and instant validation. You put your hand up to work in real estate, that's it? You're, you're in the lion's den because you're, you're, you're going to get rejected and told no every single day, your earned, you know, you work for commission. So you do the work, you get paid three months later, it's the third least trusted profession in the country. So people aren't running down the street going, yeah, you're a real estate agent. Awesome. Come in and let's put the kettle on.

Tanja Lee: And if you don't have the Headspace and the self worth, and the value, the personal value to rise resilient in a world of rejection and uncertainty, you will become one of those true transactional agents. And you will not survive. There's so many agents that walk into a home. They, they don't feel good enough. They, they are, you know, feeling insecure, they're coming from a scarcity mindset. They think that real estate is a fast tickets of fancy cards, shiny shoes, and a sexy watch. And it's actually not, this is not about bricks and mortar. This is a people business. You got to master the art of connection before you can earn your commission. But that's very true.

Chris Bates: Okay. With the agent, or is it the agency? You know, like if you're a new agent you could pick to work at lots of different agencies is the biggest mistake that they make. They choose the wrong agency. Is it the agencies that are kind of perpetuating this problem by creating this sort of boiler room, you know, sales environment where it's all about just getting this things and getting South

Tanja Lee: Great question. I think, I think it's a combination, you know, I think an an old quote that I heard when I was 17 and I started my management cadet training back with a major retailer many, many moons ago. I remember the facilitator standing up the front saying of fish stinks from the head first. And at the times that I don't get that. What does that mean? But obviously I, you know, I know what it means now. I think Chris, I think it is a combination. I think the brand, it's all about values and ethos, right? So the brand you work for, if it's a cookie cutter, sausage making, you know, churn and burn kind of operation, then your it's likely to attract those kinds of agents. Some of the best brands that I've had the privilege to work for, the ones that AE, they treat their agents as the clients first, because they know they are the ones out there in the field, bringing revenue and people to the business and expanding the market share.

Tanja Lee: So principals listening to this, my first tip to you is please treat your agents and your team like the client, because they are, you treat them like gold. The ripple effect will be extraordinary. And and I think it's important for when agents are choosing an agency, you've got to have goal congruency, like, are you singing from the same hymn book? Do you have a shared sense of value? And because the environment that you work in will influence the training that you have and the dialogue that you use, the coaching that you get. And there is a, there is a difference amongst brands, for sure. No doubt about it.

Veronica Morgan: There's totally is. And, and, you know, as you're talking in my mind, I'm thinking about a number of you know, boutique brands, but some, many of them with multiple offices and the different branding or the different flavor of and the different of their values as well. Yeah. Some of them that are churn and burn are extraordinarily successful and it's, I think it's put down to, they work the numbers and they are highly disciplined and they are transactional. There's no doubt about it, but they, they are a machine. And I wonder, how do they keep up the stamina?

Tanja Lee: Yeah, I think more so from my perspective, one of the things that I teach there, Veronica is the three steps for success. And those types of businesses have really nailed this to a degree. The three steps for success are number one, raise your standards. So this is about absolute clarity and precision on your, why, your values, your vision, your financial game plan. And you've got to turn your shirts into mass. So, you know, we know we should prospect. We know we should call. We know we should follow up. We know we should do a effective data entry in the CRM system for clients, for consumers listening. That's just the tool we use to have your details clear. We know what we should do, but most people should all over themselves and haven't defined their busts. So you have to master your math. So that's number one, those kinds of agencies that you're talking about, they've got very clear financial goals and that's, that's the kind of North star that they followed.

Tanja Lee: Then they're not apologetic about wanting to be ridiculously successful. The second step to success is simplify or strategies. So this is where things are extremely systemized and automated to build efficiencies and effectiveness. So it is that well oiled machine, because sometimes for some agencies, it can come across as a little bit Wolf of wall street and, you know, different strikes for different folks. There's the agent agent, mr. Switzerland, that we chose. It was, it, it was literally, he said, you know, what would you like? What would you love now? That's not the language of every single agent that was very warm and fuzzy, and that spoke to us. And so, but there are other vendors out there that, you know, you say, what would you love? And they're like, what are you took? Like, what are you talking about? This is not kumbaya, you know, have a child and doilies were actually wanting to sell us.

Tanja Lee: So I think that's also, you know you need to, you need to be a chameleon. You need to research or your vendors and buyers. So you can actually reverse engineer your approach. And that's what great agents do. And then the third step for success is elevate your state. And for me, this is the biggest one in this game, because you have to, you have to become masterful at rising resilient in a world of rejection. When you fail, if you decide, and this is what most people do, we fail, we lose the listing, or it goes to somebody else. And, and what, what the best agents do is they don't make failure, mean they're a failure. They don't make no mean I'm not good enough. They just, they separate the facts from the feelings and they get back on the court really quickly.

Tanja Lee: So I think that's what constitutes those of agencies is there. They're really clear. They're super systemized, they're super efficient. And they've got a very robust constitution for continuation, robust constitution for resistance of rejection. They do. That's true, but you have to, but you, you know, for me, you couple, you, you add those distinctions with wholehearted love. Like I had one of my coaching clients yesterday. She's a number one in her area in regional Victoria. She's just spent this way. I mean, this is a whole different perspective, but she's been doing this in lockdown. She's just braked 500 cupcakes and delivered it to her people in her community, which has been delivering bottles of wine to all the clients that she knows that are homeschooling. Mum is little helper. Dad was little helper, you know, and she, she does that because that's who she is. I'm clear. She's number one, because of those kinds of things that she does.

Veronica Morgan: If you like, what you're hearing here, please share this episode with others, you feel would benefit. And while you're at it, why not leave us an iTunes review five stars, please. Every review helps make it easier for other people to find us and hear what our amazing guests have to say. We love hearing your questions and we are planning more listener Q and a episodes. Please send your questions in. You can send them via the website, which is the elephant in the room.com today. You, or directly via email to questions@theelephantintheroom.com I, you,

Chris Bates: I find it, you know, lots of professions, but especially in real estate, there's always the 80 20 rule, right? Like 20% get 80% of the work. And especially in real estate, it could be even more than that. You know, it's always harder for these new agents sort of to have abundance mindset they're coming to the area, but then 90% of the work goes to these two agents. How do they sort of dislodge them? And over time,

Tanja Lee: You know, this is a really good question. And so what I would share is you go in, not go in with the it's all mindset, and this is where the principals and the directors have really, really got to nurture these new, you know, green agents, whether they be female or male, did the gender really doesn't matter. You can't go in looking to land every deal as a greener agent, if you don't go in feeling backed by your agency. So my tip here is rather than go in, is this bright eyed, bushy tailed, new agent, you know, hungry for the listing, which is definitely part of the equation. You want to make sure that you go in feeling like representing and communicating on behalf of the agency. So you feel back to now, obviously, you know, a good principal and a good director will initially be the training wheels for that agent.

Tanja Lee: And they will attend the listing consultations and they will be there and let the agent lead the conversation. They may provide a safety net and kind of catch the moments where maybe they get out of rapport or they miss an opportunity because the principal knows those nuances. And then they sit in the car and they effectively debrief without stripping them to shreds. Like we need great leadership in this industry. And there's a whole conversation there. I've done a lot of research on that. So I think the principal and the director, it's their responsibility to make sure that their green agents are going in feeling like they're part of a team, whether it's got collective years of experience, they're speaking as, as, as way not. I, and in addition to that, I'm a big fan of vulnerability and courage. I love transparency and people can smell in authenticity, a mile away.

Tanja Lee: And it's Tom ferry says that international real estate coach, Tom ferry says, you know, you can smell commission breath. If you, as a new age, you can. So if, if you, as a new agent are sitting there at the kitchen table or the dining table, and you say, you know, like I'm really proud to represent a brand that has, you know, 45 years experience. You know, I say that not to Chesapeake, but to say that, you know, we have more people in our community choosing us to partner the sale of their biggest assets. And we don't take that lightly. And when I, if I talk about myself as an individual, I'm new to this game, I don't want to share something that's game changer. If you're an agent listening to this, hi, by the way, I'm going to give you access to significantly increase your listing conversion rate.

Tanja Lee: If that's of interest, guys, I'm happy to share that here. I think the agents need to also just say, look, you know, I'll be honest, I'm back. You know, I'm backed by an amazing agency. I am new to the industry. And so I am, I'm absolutely hungry to be of service. I don't have 40 listings that I'm managing at the moment. Your home is my number one priority. And so I will be doing everything I can backed by my principal and director to ensure that we get the greatest result for you. And so you're not competing with any other vendor right now. You just get me fully,

Veronica Morgan: Some people do we respond to that. I remember, you know, when I was a sales agent, I was number one for Nick and neck with two other agents for number one position for the last four years I was there. And, and, you know, so obviously sold a lot in the area and every now and then I'd come up in a Listing you know, for a listing presentation or with a potential client. And they be saying, well, you know, are you going to be as hungry as this newbie? And I was always really, Yeah, yeah. It was like, well, yeah, I'm still on where you just, cause I've been around. I mean, it's funny that that some people do respond to that pitch,

Tanja Lee: But some do, I don't think a lot would, if you, if you don't couple it with backed by the agency. Cause then it's like, Oh, I'm dealing with someone that's inexperienced. Like I want someone that's cut their teeth, you know? So it's not something that can be done in isolation. I don't think, I think you've really a combination of both

Chris Bates: The conversation a bit from the agent to the buyer. What are some of the things that buyers should be aware of that agents are trained at or agents potentially not manipulating? Cause they don't really like that word, but agents are potentially getting better results out of them as buyers because they're using certain tools. I guess, you know, if you're flipping out from a buyer's point of view, what are some of the best ways they can better get better results with it?

Tanja Lee: Yeah. Well I think a couple of key things are, as I said before, please do your preparation. Don't, don't give your power away. So, you know, do your preparation, what is in these two factors? I spend some time having a look at the, the major portals you know, real estate.com and domain on, you know, just do a search of properties in your area. So you can get a sense of what the current sort of value is or the, the marketplace is. And then of course, do the research on your agents that, you know, there's, the digital interview is been happening solidly, meaning that, you know, people aren't going people aren't getting ink on, you know, as they scroll through the yellow pages on their finger. Now they are literally going online and looking at who are the, who are the top agents in the area and they are doing digital interviews before they even ring.

Tanja Lee: So pay also pay attention as you're driving around your local community. Just notice, especially on weekends, how many boards are out, who has dominance in the boards that are out, that's going to give you a really clear indication of who's doing more, more business out there. And and the biggest thing I would say, which is going to sound a little woo, woo. But listen to your intuition, your intuition, your gut, which is an acronym for give up thinking will tell you more then your mind will. So when you are speaking and I'm a really big fan guys of this distinction called how you do one thing is how you do everything. So when you're, when you're looking at agents to choose notice the language and the dialogue and stuff that they use online, go to their private Facebook page as well, you'll get an insight into, you know, the kind of person that they are.

Tanja Lee: So if they've got on there, you know, real estate.com agent profile that they're philanthropic and charitable and you know, they believe in giving back to the community and you know, they're this kind of persona. And then you go onto their personal website and it's you know, just rooftop dancing on, I base up, you know, then, then maybe that's not. So you know, right. Maybe they are as well. But you know, just to this, it's just the biggest asset, you know, and this could, this could determine like tens of thousands of dollars in some cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars difference. So you must be prepared with some market knowledge and agent knowledge. You must research the agents both professionally and personally is, is my opinion. You're not spending on it, but just have a little look, get a sense of who they are.

Tanja Lee: See if there's compatibility with how they're broadcasting themselves prepare for the listing consultation, like prepare your questions, interview the agent. One of the biggest things that that I train agents in, and this goes back to that tip of, you know, how to, how to convert. And this is also a big message for buyers, which I know you want to get across. Every agent in a listing consultation says what they do and how they do it. Here's what we do. Here's how we do it. Here's the marketing campaign. Here's the way the photography is going to look. Here's when it's going to be online. Here's what the board is going to look like. And here's how much it's going to cost you, blah, blah, blah. Everyone does that. But not many agents say why. And this is a huge, huge thing because we literally have three brains.

Tanja Lee: We have the subconscious brain, we have the limbic brain, which is the emotional brain that makes decisions. And it's always fly fishing for the why, why do I choose agency versus agent a or B? And then you have the neocortex, which is the rational brain. So if I'm a buyer and I'm interviewing three agents, all of them guys will be saying, here's what we do and how we do it. Here's what we do and how we do it. But if you can, if you have an agent that says, you know, Veronica and Chris, before I share with you how I can meet, what's important in the sale of your home and demonstrate how I can meet your expectations of an agent of choice, would it be okay if I told you why real estate, like why I do what I do all automatically? And you asked me, Chris, you know, what are some of the things that great agents do?

Tanja Lee: This is one is if I say, would it be okay if I told you why bang I've turned on your limbic brain, because you're looking for why you versus a or B agent. And if I say something like this, now it's not just the words because you know, energy, you can, I can be saying something, but can be completely inauthentic. So you want to feel for resonance. If I said something guys like, you know, for me, it's really simple. I love real estate because it's an opportunity to achieve financial freedom. I love nothing more than negotiating the highest value for your biggest asset, because I know it's going to give you greater access to choice in the future. And here's an example. And if I pull out a book and I don't just show the bricks and mortar story, but I show, you know, he's Fred and ginger, their dream was to always open a Turkish bar where you were able to get $35,000 more for them. And that's us on opening night, having some buckler, Vara, and coffee, you know, like, and, and he's so, and so, and so, and so, and you tell those stories that engages me in a way that's not transactional. So please make sure that you ask your agents, like why real estate, why do you do what you do, especially if you're the least what the third least trusted profession now going back to one thing you said about using your gut now with

Veronica Morgan: Buyers, we said, you know, there's, there's a gut thing that a lot of buyers have. And firstly, if they don't trust agents, it's going to be difficult trying to work out who they should trust and who they can't trust. And, and I keep reminding buyers, look, you know, you got to understand the agent works for the vendor. A good agent will do their best to actually help you, but you got to understand the buck stops for them with the vendor. But the thing with buyers, you know, there's so much dialogue out there at the moment that Does manipulate bars or influence bars, depending on what word you want to use. And there is so much Ability from the agent's perspective to create urgency. And I've heard this recently from from a lot of agents are saying, it's our job now, the market is, you know, the market slowed down a couple of years. It started peaking again and Cove it's hit it's, it's, there's a, a level of concern, shall we say? I mean, it's still fairly, You're looking at the Sydney clearance rates. We're looking at mid, mid sixties Have done. So since may, so it's strong enough, but there's a level of uncertainty out there in the marketplace. And when that's the case, the agents say right,

Veronica Morgan: It's up to us to create urgency now. So they are doing that. Some of them very, very conscious And some of them a bit nefariously, really? Yeah. Um how do buyers, I guess, sniff out those ones is when FOMO is going on, where they're actually found a property, they really love, I don't want it to sound and there's a of stuff on the elephants running rapid in their brains, but, and then there are Absolutely very, very, very deliberate in this, In this approach.

Tanja Lee: Yeah. Great. I mean like how long have we got great question. This for me really comes down to buyers, spending the time to get really clear around their non-negotiables and making sure that they really well prepared as much as possible. I E you know, some of the biggest mistakes that buyers make you know, they buy emotionally. They, they, they, they overspend, they haven't got their finance preapproved, so they they're wasting a lot of their time and they can't make, they can't make decisions with a sense of embodiment and clarity and purpose. And when you aren't centered as a buyer, you're more easily manipulated for lack of a better word, because you can be like you can be. So I think you have to really make sure, first of all, before you even engage with agents, you've got to really powerfully separate the facts from the feelings, the emotion from the economics of the transaction, because it's a highly emotive situation. You're dealing with a family home. If your emotions aren't in check, you, you may get seduced. You may get carried away with a very clever smoke and mirrors kind of agent. So embodiment of your economics emotion, the facts and the feelings I think is critical. Does that make sense? Like just really separating the two.

Veronica Morgan: It does. The thing is, and this is the thing about the elephant, the room, the elephant is the metaphor for the subconscious mind. And so religious groups say that the subconscious mind is driving upwards of 85% of our decisions. Now, 85, if you're quite conscious and up to 95, if you're not. And so therefore you might be able to separate them, but can you actually withstand the pull of the elephant, Right. I guess what I'm keen for, from your point of view, You've been working with agents now For many, many years, you you've seen The, the signs of a transactional agent versus a relation relational agent. You've, you've talked about that. So at the beginning, From what are some of the things that transactional agent will do when they're working with buyers that are relational agent won't do?

Tanja Lee: Okay. So a transactional agent is very ice centric. They, you can feel like their energy is very much talking about their agenda, what they need to do what, you know, what the vendor needs. They, you can sense that they're not really nurturing the relationship with the buyer or seeking to understand the buyer's perspective. There's a there's there's not harshness, but it's, it's it lacks a bit of empathy and it lacks a little connection. It just feels black and white. It's just, well, this is the way it is. So I think it's a, it's definitely an energetic thing. I think you can also feel a sense of there's an edge, so you can feel the sense of, okay. So yeah, like you said before, Veronica, the agent is representing the vendor first and they can be quite abrupt and harsh. And like, this is the line, the line in the sand, which is a good thing.

Tanja Lee: Cause I guess buyers kind of know where they stand, but that's definitely a, you know, that you know where you stand, but I think a relational agent has this capacity to make you feel like they're working harmoniously with both parties to try to come together and meet in the middle where they honor the vendor's desire of getting the highest value, but also creating a space for the buyer to fulfill a dream. There's a very different, there's a different resonance. There's a different language. There's a different energy about it. I think it also comes down to, as I said before, if you have not done your research as a buyer and you have no idea what the comparable sales are on the properties that you're looking at, and you are going in blind, you're in a disempowered orientation from the get go. And if an agent can sense that if you don't know what you're talking about, like, do you know how many times there's a vendor or a buyer myself, I've been more educated on the properties than the agent has.

Tanja Lee: And the power place shifts instantly. All of a sudden I have the upper hand and they go, Oh, crap. Like this, this chick knows his stuff. Right. I didn't even tell them what I do for a living. I just, they can see, I know what I'm talking about. I know what the comparable sales are. I know what the I've already got. You know, I've already done some research. I know what they bought the property for. I know how much the build was. I know how long it's been on the market. I know it's gone to three different agents. I know they're the fourth agency that's had it. Like when you show up like that, you have the power. And that's what I mean. Like, I think that's the biggest mistake that buyers make. So the other thing would be, you know,

Veronica Morgan: They, they fat about right. They, they I know there's a saying that I heard some years ago was quite like, there's a point at which you need a piece, we'll get off the pot. Right. You know, and as an agent, so there's a, there's a point at which they're gonna try to volume agent, we call them volume agents as somebody that's just really Juniper and they just, they really want to, and they'll, they'll use these language. I want to sell it quickly. So I've got, I can help more people. And it's like, ah, no, is it the, the idea is that there are buyers out there who need a shove. They made a nudge, you know, and obviously as a buyer's agent, you know, when I can work, some of the buyer, clients can be like that. And, but we're on their side and they're paying us. And so loyalty belongs to them. And if we nudge them, it's because we know based on everything that we've understood about them, that that is a good decision for them. But a selling agent is still going to get a job done.

Tanja Lee: Right. And so there are those buyers out there that need that nudge. How does a relational agent work to help motivate an insane urgency with those sort of buyers which is distinct from manipulating? Yeah. I think it's all in the delivery of the communication. So I think, you know, if I, if I was a relational agent and I've, you know, obviously number one, I'm, I am, I'm engaged by the vendor to produce producer result and, you know, a great relational agent does treat buyers like future vendors because that's actually what they are. So, you know, it's, you know, it just comes down to delivery of communication and transparency. So, you know, if it was me and again, just for full transparency, I've never listed and sold a property in my life. I'm an average consumer that saw a problem that did some research and was of service.

Tanja Lee: And I don't know how, but got some awards for the work that I've done and, you know, so I must be doing something. Okay. But I think, you know, if we've got to remember, we're just human beings at the end of the day. So I think a good relational agent will say, you know, Veronica, I want to be really transparent with you. I, I want to get a really amazing result from my vendor because you know, it's my job to get the best result for them so they can get greater choice for their future. I equally want to get a great result for you, cause I know you really love this property and I'm going to be upfront and transparent with you. I'm not going to play games. I'm going to be really clear about this is the price that is going to make this process happen and the deal done.

Tanja Lee: And so I I'm, I'm, you know, it's your choice whether you want this property or not. I want to support you in that process, but that's this easy and you've got to be, you've got to stand firm in the, in the value that you're trying to get for that particular vendor. And so I don't think it's any trickier than being really straight about, you know, I want to get the best price for my client and I want to support you in fulfilling a dream here, but we have to work together to get on the same page. And so I don't wanna, I don't want to waste your time. I don't want to play the games of, you know, you do an offer and then we're playing $5,000 here. I'm going to be really transparent and let you know, this is what's going to have you in the game. I have to respect the privacy of the other people that we're negotiating with. But like, I'm going to let you know if this is your best price and that's it, whether you're in the ballpark or not, I'm not interested in a smoke and mirrors with you. So I mean,

Chris Bates: A lot of our clients use buyer's agents. A lot of them don't because it's, you know, with a, I haven't met a great one or that kind of afford the face time bar, et cetera. And a lot of them will pretty much always ask. So what's the value and it's not because I've gone through the experience before, so they don't really understand and they think, Oh, it's all right.

Veronica Morgan: Yeah.

Chris Bates: From may and Veronica, you might disagree with me. But I think one of the biggest value adds would probably be that negotiation part conversation because you know, the buyer is, you know, there's so much smoke and mirrors and so much distrust there. We had a client just recently, they're buying a property down towards sort of granola. And it was like a Thursday. And then all of a sudden the agent calls him and he's not using a buyer's agent and we're having a chat. And I said, look, the agents, all of a sudden found two other buyers. And they're all of their in like three ducks lined up in a row as well. And like my clients in the middle, I've got someone below you, I've got someone above you. We're talking like $10,000. Oh my God, this is a very convenient story on a Thursday. I made, it sounds like it's just too convenient, but we just don't know, which is what I said to him. I said, and the property sold on Friday and itself a 10 grand more than it was willing to, or what their offer was. And so the agent was actually saying the truth and that's the thing like, you know, in that story, you would think that the agents just got these convenience stores. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. It's very hard for the buyer to truly know. And I think that's where the buyer's agent is in

Veronica Morgan: There probably gets the truth a bit more because of Veronica sometimes. Yes, absolutely. Sometimes we do get the truth because of the relationship or we can interpret what's being said, and with it yet, I've heard that one before that's on page 73 of that type of sales agent manual, you know the problem is that sometimes they're telling the truth as in this example and the dialogue that we have, if you want to use the word dialogue, I guess I just did. You know, the conversation we have with our clients around that is okay, in this particular agent, we suspect they're telling the truth, but we will never know unless you pass on it. So if you want to call their bluff, then, then we call their bluff and it might be that you end up with it for 10 grand cheaper, but if it's more important for you to buy this property, then it needs to let it go. And if we're also, we do our full pricing research beforehand. So we've got a very, very clear idea on what it is worth. And we've also have, we have a framework that we go through with our clients to help them set their maximum offer before we start negotiating. And that's the other thing that is so important that people start negotiating within their mind, the price they want to pay, not the price they will pay.

Veronica Morgan: And that is a really key difference because what's happening there. They're then got this they're dealing with FOMO and disbelief at the same time to emotions or to sort of forces that are pulling them in different directions. And then they go into this inertia. So somebody will do nothing. They miss out on the property, they should buy some people then pay too much. They'll never know. And then they'll keep themselves in a pull up. I have a page for the rest of their lives and they're not taking charge of that actual negotiation themselves. So it's, it's very fraught. And at the end of the day, you know, by remembering what the agent is trying to achieve, and some of them do it in really dodgy ways because they don't have the skills to do it any better. And in remembering what the property is actually worth in the marketplace, and also then understanding what it's worth to you personally then can actually make a better.

Tanja Lee: And I think, and to add to that, what it's worth, what I know. And one of the training pieces that I do with agents is also too, I think a huge missed opportunity is when you're getting down to the final negotiation, in some cases as you guys, well, and truly know it could be five grand, 10 grand, like it's, you know, it's like we're splitting hairs in some, in some ways I think a massive missed opportunity is when an agent actually neglects to say, listen, you know, Veronica, you know, another $5,000 or $10,000 now. And let me just paint a picture for you in the value of this property. In seven to 10 years time, you're going to spend an extra five to 10 now to get it. And in 10 years time, you've got an extra $150,000 worth of value. So are you willing to actually make this happen for yourself today, by know, going beyond what you expected to pay and invest another five or 10 grand that will actually get it across the line.

Veronica Morgan: Based on the current office, I have knowing that that created an investment where this is going to be worth an extra X amount of dollars or whatever it is in seven to 10 years time. And I think that's the responsibility of a good agent because it's not, it's not like we're going to the milk bar and buying a bag of mixed lollies. It's going to be consumed. And then it's next, it's an investment that is going to yield great value over time might, might, might you'll grow. And, and I hear what you're saying and you're, you're, you're in the business of training real estate agents. And that is, you know, good practice from their part. However, nobody can guarantee it's going to go up and be how much it's going to go up. And and I always draw people's attention back to CoreLogic's pain and gain report every quarter. We're reminded of the people that sell at a loss well,

Chris Bates: Emotions for, like you said, FOMO and what was the other thing they were feeling? Cause I said, yeah,

Veronica Morgan: It's crossed it's they're feeling fear because they actually feel it's obviously it's it's FOMO and fear two different types of fear, fear of being lied to fear of missing out. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Bates: There as well. We are starting to all about this with the client. I was like, you know, you probably want to win in this little battle with, cause you feel like that you're fair. Fairness is definitely a value of lots of people. They want to treat others. Like we want to be treated. We want to go about the world and think that things are fair. And then you want to, when you transact, whether you're negotiating with anything or just buying a service, you want to feel like you're, you know, you're winning a little bit, but you also want to feel that it's fair for both sides. And I think, you know, in this situation he was, I guess, focusing a lot on whether he was telling the truth or not.

Veronica Morgan: He became the most important thing to him rather than buying the property.

Chris Bates: Yeah. Well, we spoke about it and he acknowledged it and we both kind of laughed about it a little bit. And we went back to, is this the right property? Is it really the right thing for them? You know, then we started talking about, you know, is 10 grand that we feel upset if you lose the property, all those sort of things. And he's like, yeah. And they ended up, I think it's, you know, they actually, I think the reason they didn't go ahead wasn't because of the ego or because of the fear of missing out, it was, they just didn't hundred percent think it was the right property if they didn't get it. And so it was ended up being the right decision for them. But yeah, but it's, it's interesting in that transaction, it goes a step away from what you're trying to achieve to, I want to win this little negotiation and yeah, exactly.

Veronica Morgan: Hi. Yeah. I was going to ask you, I mean, I didn't have to have an ego, you know, it, you need a healthy, you can go to be an agent and goes on a bad thing. How do you coach agents to deal with that and to sort of diffuse that situation?

Tanja Lee: That's a whole other podcast, but you know, I think yeah, it's ego. So from my orientation, there's two places we can be. We can be in our soul and our greatness and who we are as a creator. And then we can be in our ego, typically ego. What happens in when we're in our ego, it's a, it's a mask for our, the wounded child where we didn't get love and acknowledgement from our mother or, or sorry, love and nurturing from our mother or acknowledgement and praise from our father. So we are our agenda in our ego is to seek validation and we sit, we overcompensate and, and why often it's considered this industry can be considered as a very egoic industry because people can be very driven by chasing the shiny they many agents think they're going to come into here in this space and get instant success and drive those cars.

Tanja Lee: And do you know how many agents portraying a persona and a lifestyle that's actually not real? And the level of stress, substance abuse, suicidal thoughts, because they are pretending to be something they're not. Yeah, it is. That's a massive elephant in the room. It attracts people that think that they're going to get validation by chasing the shiny and being seen inverted commas as successful. That is, I mean, I think from the last piece of research I did in the last two years, there's been about 19,000 real estate agents that have exited the building. And I think it's because they'd like their list of the industry. I think it's because they get a massive reality check that you don't show up and then get the watch and the shoes and the car within three months, if you don't have a constitution for, you know, hard work and tenacity and resilience, you're going to struggle.

Tanja Lee: Interestingly though, when I do peak performance coaching, the amount of agents that have said to me, tantra, I don't want to lose my ego because that's the thing that drives me to succeed. And I go, I get that. But here's, what's interesting if you're chasing being validated by external valid validation, it's an, it's an exhausting never-ending chase. And no matter what, it's never ending, no matter what award you win, no matter whether you're number one, no matter the biggest sale of record or whatever it is, you will never ever experience a visceral sense of. I am enough. And that's what constitutes the transactional agent because they are entering people's homes, trying to fulfill the pursuit of being enough versus making like Gandhi or mother Teresa and losing themselves in service of the client time after time, after time and letting the sold stories speak for themselves.

Veronica Morgan: Well, that's a fabulous way. I think, Segue to our next segment The week. Oh, it that's that's, I mean, that's such a great wrap up. I think what's fundamentally wrong with some, with part of our industry. Do you have a Dumbo other than that?

Tanja Lee: Not, you know, I think, you know, it's really just considering, you know, the buyers, you know, that, that part of the audience. And I know I've said it a few times. I, my invitation is Dumbo is, as Dumbo does, please don't be done about the biggest transaction of your life. Please educate yourself and, and do this, listen to this podcast, to educate yourself on the things that we need to do to, to make solid decisions. Please don't give your power away to agents and get seduced by great dialogue, because it could cost you thousands and thousands of dollars in any years and years of your life, because you didn't take the time to do your research. I think that's, that's the dumbest thing we can do as consumers.

Veronica Morgan: So true. And I mean, we're singing from the same hymnbook obviously, but thank you so much for Tanja for coming along and discussing these because these are things that have to be discussed. You know, I think, you know, I'm very proud to be a real estate And, and, and I want, you know, want us to become a profession, but we're not going to be one until there's some significant change. And so and I think it's the consumer. Can we, we like, we can just stand for greatness. Like the, as I said, if we, if we just be dumb and give the power away, then we're not causing an elevation of the standards of this industry. And you know, I think that's something that we can do.

Veronica Morgan: Yeah, exactly. We're blaming the industry and not actually taking responsibility for our partners.

Tanja Lee: Exactly, exactly. And it's too expensive, a risk really at the end of the day, we work too hard. Last, too short. There's the date we were born and the date we die, the date we're dust, and there's this the dash in the middle and the dash in the middle real estate provides an opportunity for us to live in extraordinary dash. And just please remember this, it's a partnership where you are in partnership with your representing agent and agency. You don't give, you know, you don't give your power away. It's a dance,

Veronica Morgan: Lovely Tanja. Thank you so much for joining us. And we will actually pop in the show notes. We'll pop a link to your website as well. And any other resources that you might want

Tanja Lee: To share with our audience then send through and we'll pop them in the show notes. We'd love to thanks for the opportunity guys and congrats again on elevating all of our awareness on the pitfalls and trials and tribulations of doing this thing called real estate and property.

Chris Bates: We want to make you a better elephant rider. And this week's elephant rider training is

Veronica Morgan: When Tanja was talking about buyers needing to do research. Well, of course, it's singing to our hymnbook. This is exactly what we talk about on the podcast all the time. But I just want to remind you about the importance of doing your own pricing research. Now attend, you did mention that yes, you can buy a hundred dollar report from RP data or call logic and, and press a button and get an idea about what your home's worth. Yes, you can, but they're not very reliable, you know, the only way to do that. And likewise, when you're buying a property is to actually yourself, do the research and look at recent sales and compare them honestly, with the property that you're the own, or you're looking at selling at, sorry, I'm looking at buying and really worked through where that property sits in relation to everything else that has been selling in the marketplace.

Veronica Morgan: And you've got to make sure that they are relevant sales. They are, you know, slightly inferior, slightly superior or comparable, and how long ago they sold and, you know, and be mindful too, that individual sales can have individual circumstances relating to them. But I'm there. I do have a free course on this, on home buyer Academy. So it's actually home buyer academy.com forward slash free course. I'll pop the link in the show notes, which actually just is a short three video course. It takes you through the process, but you can get online yourself. You can look in domain and real estate.com that I knew they both have sold sections. So you can search the sold properties. As I said, be careful that they're not too long in the tooth, those sales, but you know, this information is out there and you can you can access it and you do need to put in the legwork to get a true sense of where any property sits. Price-Wise

Chris Bates: I think it's one of the biggest mistakes she going to more likely make when you know, you're new to the market and you haven't done many opens, you haven't done many auctions, or if the property just all of a sudden comes out of the blue, because a lot of good properties are selling really fast. I imagined Veronica and you're saying and so all of a sudden this listing comes up or a pre-listing and you hear about it, and you've got to make a decision really fast. So sometimes buyers can kind of skip over that and just pay whatever the agent wants rather than making sure it's a pretty fair deal.

Veronica Morgan: Totally. And in fact, if you remember, we interviewed Kylie Walsh from Dyjaun some way back a good one for, to go back to and listen, to, to understand sort of what's going on in there in the world of agency. And and she did say that, you know, agents know that the buyer that buys a property around the corner from their home, because they happen to be walking past and went, Oh my God, that's up for sale. I've always loved that house. The ones that are out of the market and are not current in their information and their knowledge are very likely to overpay.