Episode 156 | 2020 vision: Sentiments on the decade ahead | Rocky Scopelliti

Renown futurologist discusses the decade ahead, what will be expected and how you can be prepared?
Rocky Scopelliti, is a world class futurologist, recognised internationally as an authority across upcoming technology, social change and the economic future. He’s currently a director of Optus and Community First Credit Union, and works in advisory capacities to a variety of companies including Fortune 100 corporations. In this episode, Rocky dives into his recently published book Australia 2030! - Where the Bloody hell are we?  which outlines the sentiments of 673 professionals, 170 in key executive positions and their views on the decade ahead.
Here’s what we covered:

• How will the world transition through to the next leap of automation and AI?

• Will remote working open up competition for Australian jobs?

• Is the physical home more important now than ever?

• What will the workforce look like in 2030?

• Can we trust in the Government to invest in our future?

• What issue will impact Australia the most in the next decade?

• How can businesses contribute to society?

• Is the technological and scientific future optimistic?

• How will the average Australian's life change the most?

• What has worried the majority of Australians over the next decade?

RELEVANT EPISODES:
Episode 129 | Craig Rispin

GUEST LINKS:
http://www.rockyscopelliti.com/
Australia 2030 – Where the bloody hell are we?
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HOST LINKS:
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Work with Veronica: https://linktr.ee/veronicamorgan

Looking for a Mortgage Broker? www.wealthful.com.au
Work with Chris: hello@wealthful.com.au

Send in your questions to: questions@theelephantintheroom.com.au

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: 
Please note that this has been transcribed by half-human-half-robot, so brace yourself for typos and the odd bit of weirdness…
This episode was recorded in December, 2020.

Veronica Morgan: Nobody would have predicted how 2020 has unfolded and yet so many predictions have been made and proven to be wrong in quick succession, even as we're experiencing the ramifications of climate change, the pandemic, the first recession we've had in over 30 years and what it looks like the beginning of another property, boom. And yet we're going to brave it. And we can to look ahead to 2030,

Veronica Morgan: Welcome to the elephant in the room. This is the podcast where we love to talk about the big things in property that never usually get talked about. I'm Veronica Morgan, real estate agent buyer's agent co-host of Foxtel's location, location, location, Australia, and author of auction ready. And I'm Chris Bates mortgage broker. Before we get started, I need to let you know that nothing we say on here can be taken as personal advice. We always recommend you engage the services of a professional. Don't forget that you can access the transcript for this episode on the website, as well as download our free full forecast report, which experts can you trust to get it right? The elephant in the room.com did I use

Veronica Morgan: Sentiment is an interesting thing. It's swings elections creates volatility in share markets. It's what drives supply and demand and the property market sentiment doesn't have to be based on fact, it's a collective emotion or crowd psychology. So what's the sentiment amongst our business leaders when it comes to the next decade, today's guest has surveyed 673 Australian professionals, 170 pyramid classified as CEO, chairman, or board director. Interestingly, the research commenced just before lockdown have finished in the middle of it. How have our attitudes towards the decade ahead changed as a consequence of the pandemic we're joined today by Rocky scribbly, di futurist thought leader, businessmen and author of a newly released book Australia 2030, where the bloody hell are we Rocky. Thank you for joining us. We're really keen to hear your insights today. It's great to be part of the program, I.

Chris Bates: Guess when you started to write the book, what were some of your unconscious actually to happen over the next second?

Rocky Scopellit...: So it really begins with thinking about the last decade because we closed off what was possibly the most turbulent decade with ever experienced. And what I mean by turbulent was it was turbulent politically. It was, you know, we had what we saw was more changes of leadership through that period by the major parties than, than any other nation. We broke records for that. We saw our our attitudes towards climate change go from the peak at the start of the last decade to be at its lowest. You know, we saw, you know, this cluster of economic conditions that we'd never experienced before, low economic growth you know, government spending huge debt. And so I think, you know, it's important to reflect upon your plastic because the attitudes of how we think today and how we think about the future are really anchored or spring-boarded from what occurred in the last, in the, in the last decade.

Rocky Scopellit...: So as we sort of closed out the the decade, you will recall that, you know, we had, you know, the worst environmental bushfires catastrophes we've ever experienced now, whilst that was going on towards the end of last year, or I could see that that COVID was unfolding in the Northern hemisphere at a very rapid right. You'll recall that, you know it went from, you know, Asia over into Europe and impacted Italy you know was probably the first country that was significantly impacted. And so, you know, as I was following, what was what was going on there? It became clear that it was inevitable that I would find out itself into Australia. I think what what none of us predicted was it spade scale and impact. And so that's where I decided to put the the study out there. And the study is really about sort of asking the question of how do we feel about the decade ahead? How do we feel politically? How do we feel environmentally? How do we feel, you know, technologically ham. And so so it's, it's a fascinating study into seeing how our attitudes began at the start of the year, over the months of January and February, and then how they changed. So radically over the months of March and April during the eye on the COVID storm.

Veronica Morgan: Do you think they're going to change back a little bit again, I mean, there's a bit the pendulum is, do you think because of, I presume that maybe that's hard for you to answer because of the period in which you were actually doing this research, but I sort of feel that there was quite a lot of that sort of heightened where there was massive fear at that time, fear of the unknown, we, none of us like uncertainty, but there was a lot of sort of knee-jerk thing going on. Do you think that that may be the case?

Rocky Scopellit...: Absolutely. Veronica I'll give you a great example of this. If we looked at the question of what concerned Australians about Australia and the world over the coming decade, it was absolutely crystal clear that it was climate change. Now that's unsurprising. Because remember we came on the back of the Bush fires, which has impacted absolutely everyone. It didn't matter where you lived, we were all impacted directly or indirectly by those catastrophes. And so then when we look at the data of, for those people who responded during the months of March and April, it was low economic growth. So what manifests was, you know, what began as the as a healthy shoe so quickly, you know, evolved into becoming an economic issue. And then, you know, when you look at you know, what you, when you look at sort of other questions around expectations around the workforce and around jobs, you know, for those who responded over the months of January, February, and what we saw was that they, you know, principal concerns were you know, were about work life diversity work-life flexibility.

Veronica Morgan: But for those who responded during the months of March and April, it became about jobs. It became about support programs, became about reskilling. All of these things sort of manifested themselves. So back to your question about, you know, will we see a you know, a regression back that's going to be very interesting to see, because I think the, you know, the, the economic conditions that we find ourselves in that impacted, you know so many people in our society are not going to go away overnight. And, you know, there is a lot of attention going on to the environment, particularly at the moment. And so so I I'm thinking about rebranding the study again at the end of this at the end of this year. So I'll come back to you on now. What, what, what changes there

Veronica Morgan: As a, as a futurist, you get frustrated though by the immediacy of reaction, because these are business leaders you're interviewing these, aren't just, you know, the punters on the street doing box pops. This, these are people really at the helm of our economy. Does that frustrate you

Rocky Scopellit...: Doesn't frustrate me. It fascinates me because these are the leaders of of, of our economy, of our business of our private public sector as well. What was really fascinating though, it was, you know, there's this attributes in there which are just quintessentially Australian. Let me give you some examples. You know, Australian professionals were just overwhelmingly optimistic of the role of technology and scientific developments over the coming decade. Now, this is contrary to popular belief. You know, that with more than half believe that technology is going to you know, create more jobs. The water destroys and often, you know, when you need that artificial intelligence, automation, you, same breath, you're also hearing job loss. And, you know, looking towards the decade ahead, you know, two in three, believe that technological and scientific developments are going to have a positive impact on their life over the coming decade.

Rocky Scopellit...: Now what's fascinating is that skyrocketed to 87% for those who responded during the eye of the COVID storm. So let's just unpack that a little. We, you know, two in three of us think that technological and scientific advancements are going to positively impact our lives, but then under, you know, the scientific, the economic duress that we've had with COVID that belief skyrockets it intensifies. Now I think what's important though, is that, that optimism about our future is not matched by confidence that the government is investing adequately in technology science skills development, relative to other nations with more than half you know, holding that belief. Now again, when we, so that's half for those who responded during the months of January, February, that skyrocketed to 95% for those who responded during the months of March and April. So again, under, you know, under the, or in the eye of the covert storm you know, we were virtually unanimous, you know belief that government is not investing adequately in technology science and our, and our skills at a leadership level.

Rocky Scopellit...: This, this, this is quite fascinating in about 89% of CEOs are positive about technology and scientific developments over the coming decade. And about the sign where were less confident that during the, the COVID that storm. And so, you know, I think this is the big opportunity that now white sauce, because, you know, we will go into, this will be the decade of death. And that's one of the, one of the tipping points. One of the things that I do talk about in the economics chapter, and, you know, we've got to step away from this expectation, I think of a, you know of, of a surplus. I don't think that narrative is going to be very helpful. And so whilst we're in now, you know, this decade of investment, it's absolutely critical that we all form points of view around where and how that should be invested.

Rocky Scopellit...: There is no more important decade I believe, than for all of us to be, to, to be interested in that question. And, you know, and we should be active in that question, not just looking towards leaders, we should all have points of view, because even when it comes to thinking about skills, which is going to impact all of us over the you know, over the coming decade you know, reinvesting in, you know, reskilling, current workforces on to new and emerging industries is going to become one of the critical success factors to our economic recovery.

Veronica Morgan: We've interviewed a few people on the podcast, and it is interesting to this idea of really where we need to go, where it's accepted. We need to go by business leaders where the government is lagging behind and particularly in the area of technology and that businesses or industry, and, and you can see in a climate change as well. And in terms of renewables, that industry or business is actually taking the lead role and just forging ahead and not waiting for the government to actually start up with initiatives and all the rest of it to support these these developments. Is that really what you're saying? That that industries is going to say, well, bugger it, we just get on with it.

Rocky Scopellit...: Yeah, look. And so we should. And so, because I asked the question in the research on who do you trust the most to serve your best interests over the coming decade? And government was the, is the least academics, academics, and, you know, subject matter experts were by far number one. And you know, second to that was the, you know, industries. And and so, you know, we, again, coming back to what I said before, we all have to be participants, you know, in this next decade, not spectators. And and what we what's fascinating here is when you look at why was it that Australia became internationally renowned for our response to COVID where in fact, you know, other studies you know, rank us as number one in the world, yet our response to climate change was in fact ranked fourth now.

Rocky Scopellit...: So, so you sort of sit back and say, well, well, what's the difference? Well, the difference is our response during COVID was what I refer to as systems leadership. What is systems leadership systems leadership is a collaborative, inclusive approach to responding to conditions economically socially. And that's what we saw during COVID. We did see governments collaborating with private sector. We did see them, you know, collaborating right across all different industries. We, we saw our experts, you know, rise to fill the vacuum of trust that had been eroded by governments over the last decade. And so, and then when you say, well, you know when you look at climate change, you see the absence of that, right? And you see the, you know, that the last decade you see the flip-flopping of of policy, the politicization of climate change. Now, all of those things were completely different. That was sort of top down really wasn't. It was a spite what the experts were telling us.

Veronica Morgan: Yeah.

Rocky Scopellit...: Professor Garnet, the, in his report to government is 2007, like the CSI Rose report to the government of 2009, these institutions, these experts, right. W predicted that without adequate response we would get the effect as we did in 20, 19 2020. Right. So why didn't we listen to our experts? I think that's, that's the fascinating question.

Veronica Morgan: Would that be to do with the fact that it's the immediacy of COVID versus the immediacy of climate change? I mean, you know, our w our efforts for climate change really needed to ramp up a lot earlier than they have been and, and a lot more now, but you know what I mean? So all year it might never happen. There's all these arguments that scientists all the rest of it, whereas you've got to, you've got a pandemic and we've been very blessed in Australia. And I say, blessed, you know, I don't know what, because we've been able to learn from what the rest of the world has, their tragedy. They've been learning, you know, head of us and with so much more tragedy than we've had. And we've been able to sort of be a step behind and therefore adjust and pivot accordingly, and actually listen to our experts. Do you think that that's got something to do with it?

Rocky Scopellit...: Oh, without any downs? And and, and that's perhaps you know I would say forced on government rather than perhaps by design, because I had no other choice. Right. you had industries that was shutting in around them. The airline industry turned off overnight. You had, you know, so, so yes, you had the consequences of the economic impact you know, play out you know, we speed scale and impact recall the month of of March. You know, he's a funny story. So when I was writing the book, I started writing the economics chapter in the in the first week of March. And I had my ideas on where I was going to go with with the chapter. And and then all of a sudden, the first stimulus you know, drop occurred, tear that up and throw a, you know, okay, so how is 17 billion going to impact the white?

Rocky Scopellit...: And then in the second week, we then had the state governments come in, all of a sudden we're up to 300 billion in stimulus. So I'm like, Oh my God, I'm just going to have to drop economics for about a month or so these things were just, you know, happening happening so dynamically to your point, but I would say they weren't happening without adequate consultation and engagement by government, our experts, whether they were economists, whether they were scientists with, you know, business leaders and the private sector, we saw industries, right. Coming together to shape decisions that were taken by the government. That's what we mean about systems leadership. So if you look at that and you sort of say, well, why isn't that business as usual? Good question. Isn't it.

Chris Bates: Mm, very good question. Sort of in the next site, Dick guidance kind of proved that we don't know what we don't know. We don't know what's going to come around the corner, but what are some of the things Australia should be pretty confident and optimistic about that we're going to achieve over this next decade in your view? We're pretty certain that that's going to happen. Yeah.

Rocky Scopellit...: So, so I, sorry, let me begin by saying I defer perhaps to, to others, is that I'm more fascinated by what I refer to as the tipping points or the signposts than necessarily the year that events may occur. So I'm not interested in whether it's going to happen in 20, 25 or 20 that, you know, there are others who are more interested in that. I'm not interested in that I'm interested in, what are the signposts, the things that we need to look out for, because those are the things that will help us prepare and, you know, and think about, you know, what's going to, what's, what's going to come at us. So, you know, when we think about the technological world you know, we've got to think about that in the context of the fourth industrial revolution. What is the fourth industrial revolution?

Rocky Scopellit...: Well, the fourth industrial revolution is characterized by a cluster of technologies that when they come together, have this multiple Katy. Perfect. so let me give you some examples. We're all hearing and seeing on television, the deployment of fifth generation mobiles or 5g mobile networks by by major carriers. But then when you think about, you know, what on top of that network, which is going to be, you know, more than just faster mobile our cities are going to become much smarter. They're going to be connected through a whole range of sensors, buildings for for example, we'll be able to monitor temperature in a fundamentally different way now that will enable them to manage energy much more efficiently than ever before. When we also start thinking about technologies like you know, like all mentored reality or virtual reality, the way with which we buy.

Rocky Scopellit...: And so things will profoundly change our experiences. For example, you could go put on a 3d headset and you could envisage what you know, what item you're you want to buy, what it might look like on you from a three district perspective, if that's what what you're into in a property sense, you know, you could walk into a, you know, you could walk into a bank into a real estate agent into, you know into a financial planning office. And, you know, you could experience what that home may look like, feel like you know, it's through augmented and virtual reality, you could even select your own furniture, put your own furniture in there to see whether, you know, your furniture. We'll, we'll go with that all kinds of things. So, you know virtual reality will become indistinguishable from reality.

Rocky Scopellit...: And these are all going to be enabled through, you know, a whole range of technologies that we've gotten to see come to life. This coming decade, I'll give you another example, 3d printing, the ability to, you know, print on demand, you know, is already here. We see that in the publishing world and in relation to books, things like that. But, you know with 3d printers manufacturing will profoundly change across all kinds of different industries and across all kinds of things that that we, you know, that we, that we buy today. So, so all of those things that, you know, are going to change our way of life, whether that is, you know, socially, professionally and, and this was, and so this is going to be a very, very exciting decade.

Chris Bates: Do you think it was COVID for the enablement of remote work or no work from anywhere sort of movement? Do you think that it needed to take us down that sort of next journey? Do you think that that will change dramatically?

Rocky Scopellit...: You know I think that that's a, you know, a wonderful question, because when you think about when you think about the question of why was it that some organizations pre COVID had, you know, very effective, flexible working policies and, and others didn't what, you know, what was the difference? Well, there was no technological difference. It was just basically, you know, leadership policies and principles. And then what happened was when COVID was just thrust on on all industries it was fascinating to see how some organizations adapted and pivoted sewing well and others didn't. And you say, well, why is that the case? If they're two, you know, similar organizations in a similar industry, why was it that one adapted and one didn't? Well, the answer is in the word resilience. And you know, the organizations that had adapted effectively had adequate resilience factored into their, you know, organizational policies, whether they work, you know around flexible working work life balance, all of these kinds of things and other organizations didn't and, and, and those that didn't tended to have pursued strategies based around productivity and efficiency over the last decade.

Rocky Scopellit...: So attenuated out you know resilience or the disability to adapt in the, you know, in the aim of pursuing productivity and efficiency. And so I think that's, what's going to be different. I think, you know, I think organizations have now realized that, you know, that, that their success is no longer a function of access to privilege resources or to, you know, intellectual property. And it's a principle that I've been sort of writing and reporting about for probably about four or five years now. And and, and it's the principle I refer to as, as juvenile essence now, juvenile essences is a beautiful Latin word defined as the constant state of youthfulness. And in essence I, I describe as the leisure principle, this is something that we can all be Bryce as people because when you look at the question of again, organizational survival, and if you go back and look at the is in pain 500 in the 1920s, the average life of a fortune 500 company back then was about 65 years now about five years ago that had declined to 15 years.

Rocky Scopellit...: And what I would say is over the coming decade, that that's gonna come into single digit figures and S and S you know, survival. Now, organizational survival is no longer, you know, a function of, you know, of, of having privileged access to resources. It's now about the ability to adapt, and that's what we can learn from from COVID. And so so, so I think that's, what's going to define successful organizations, successful leaders is that they, they, they can lead through a world characterized by exponential change rather than seeing the future, as, you know, some linear you know, points in time that, you know, everything's organized, orderly, and it's going to land in 20, 27 or 2029. That's not normal anymore. That is not the norm anymore,

Veronica Morgan: The death of the five-year plan, but this is really just the theory of evolution just on steroids. Isn't it? I mean, this is the Bible of the fittest that it's hard.

Rocky Scopellit...: Absolutely. Veronica you're spot on. This is not something new, right. This is Darwinian theory of survival. Right. and so you know, in the past, when you look at how organizations have typically sold, you know, did digital transformations to shareholders, they've typically sort of had an annual general meeting where, you know, talk about you know, the next three years or the next five years, and we're asking shareholders to forgo squillions in dividends, because we're going to reinvest that in transforming this company in 2023 or 2025, like you're guiding to unveil this shining organization that's digitally transformed, and it is going to live through the future in perpetuity, right. That's how it's sold. But what we now know is that one-off transformations, right. Do not explain organizational survival. And so then what you, what is it? Well, it's a series of short adjustments and, and, you know adapting to what's coming at them in the environment, or, you know, economically what, what have you and, and some that are the Veronica, is what we're going to see a lot more of. I think, organizations who understand that you know I think we're going to see rise from COVID and we'll operate in completely new and different ways.

Veronica Morgan: If you like, what you're hearing here, please share this episode with others, you feel would benefit. And while you're at it, why not leave us an iTunes review five stars, please, every review helps make it easier for other people to find us and hear what our amazing guests have to say. We love hearing your questions and we're planning more listener Q and a episodes. Please send your questions in. You can send them via the website, which is the elephant in the room.com today, you, or directly via email to questions@theelephantintheroom.com.edu,

Veronica Morgan: Big organizations do it though. I mean, because, you know, it's like trying to, I don't know, turn a lot of the same turn, turn the queen wary around. Right. You know, you're trying to turn around an ocean liner takes a lot of time, a lot of space, a lot of ocean. And, and I'm not using the word agile in terms of the management methodology, the methodology, but I'm using the word agile and that true, meaning the actual meaning of the words, the agility, to be able to spring and bounce and adjust and do small increments, you know, all that sort of stuff. I mean, our, our big organizations are equipped for the future. Well so I think, I think we, we will not defy physics but what we, what we will see which we did actually start seeing Jordan COVID. And that is, if you think about the way with which, you know, those poor people that were caught on those cruise liners you know, either import or, you know, off shore. And and if you saw on TV, some of them were ordering in pizzas that were being delivered on drones.

Rocky Scopellit...: You know, we're not going to turn the cruise liner or make it, it's not necessarily about making the cruise liner no, turn around, but it's the way with which we think about the processes upon which we go about surviving on a, on a ship we've got to eat. And the use clever use of technology such as that with drones is, you know is, is just a simple example of saying, that's what we're going to see more of, you know you know, that's we, we will see organizations you know, become more de-centralized in the way they operate versus centralized. So coming back to the question that you said before, you know, are we going to see a return to, you know, 40,000 people coming back into half a dozen, 15 story buildings, you know, scattered in cities across the country? No, I do. I I don't believe that I don't need to see is because I think on the enterprise size organizations have already figured it, figured it out as well. Why should I be paying a million dollars? You know, and so, you know, the COVID has flushed all of these things out, right? It's, it's, it's given us the opportunity to rethink perhaps a lot of the you know, traditional strategies that we've had in place because all of those things created you know, in flexibility. And and so that's what I mean about decentralized. It, it w it will it's not going to be an either, or I think there's going to that we'll definitely see blends.

Veronica Morgan: And we certainly seeing a response, immediate response to that, you know, in the property market in terms of where people want to live. But I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier, which really sort of, you know, stuck in my mind, it was the virtual reality. We indistinguishable from actual reality. Does that mean that if I can't afford my Harborside match and I can actually work virtual half virtually and you know, I could teach tree change or see change and, and, you know, and I can actually still own a space or live in a space that is actually virtual rather than real, are you for seeing something like that? So that's going to be the rule of galitary, that's going to make property seriously, a galitary rain, isn't it?

Rocky Scopellit...: Absolutely. And I think you know, some great examples of this, where the the national maritime museum in Sydney I think it was last year. It might've been last year or the year before they had this 3d a little theater that you could go in and have an experience around the Antarctic. It was absolutely amazing. And so, you know I took my son to that and we just, you know, have this incredible experience for about an hour, is that where on the button? And you can see penguin technology a couple of years ago. You know I guess is it has, was not as mature as what it's going to become over this coming decade. And, you know, the key enablers of this firstly faster networks such as the pixelation within and projection technology and and so all of these things are coming together, I guess, you know, over the coming decade. And so, you know rather than thinking about all been constrained in travel, for example, you could, you know, bring the couple of hours from down the Amalfi coast in a hurry.

Veronica Morgan: That's exactly what I was just thinking about so that COVID, didn't kill the airline industry. It'll be that.

Rocky Scopellit...: Absolutely. And so, you know, when you think about you know, when you think about the, of these kinds of technologies with robotics, you know, where you can actually get, you know, the the 4d experience it's pretty amazing, you know, the other things, the other things to think about is, you know when you look at health care we've been talking about tele health for about 25 years, right? Ever since the internet came out, health was one of the first areas that, you know that that, you know, everybody was thinking that there was, that was going to revolutionize and you know, that we're going to be able to do all these, have all of these wonderful treatments and things like that consultations and things like that done remotely, or why has it taken so long? And why did it take COVID to all of a sudden, you know, put it in place.

Veronica Morgan: It was extraordinary, wasn't it, all of a sudden all of these things, you know, that yeah, you could get consultations for, with your treating specialist or GP or whatever you know, virtually that you couldn't have gotten in February, you could get them in March. So, so this is all about change, right? And so again, I think there'll be things that I don't think we will see the return off and tell me health, I hope is not going to be one of them because I think what, you know this notion of of, you know, just one policy for, for, for everything doesn't work anymore in a world where, you know, we are so well endowed with all this wonderful technology and

Chris Bates: Research that ability and desire to own a home or own a space or, or how we engage with the physical environment around us. Do you think that that's going to be something that changes because we've gone through this year where everything is, you know, our usual sort of routine has been disrupted so much, so we've, you know, things that we didn't have, for example, access to local amenities, or, you know, Madam more. So do you think that that's going to shift as well? Like people are going to become more and more focused on their environment around them day-to-day rather than in the following the rat race, I guess.

Rocky Scopellit...: Yeah, absolutely. The, the workplace is becoming and is becoming dematerialized. So let me just unpack this a little before I talked about the, so we we've come through a period where centralization of, you know, a lot of things was the pathway to efficiency, productivity, more people you can pack into a building, you know, the more, you know, or the lower the costs per FTA, all of those kinds of things sort of created this centralist way of thinking. Now this stick IDs, all going to be about the complete opposite, we're going to be about de-centralization. Now, when you think about de-centralization and if you think about the fact that, you know, our economies principally now services based. So why can't I do what I do in Sydney? Why can't I do that in Wagga? What can I do that in Byron Bay?

Rocky Scopellit...: Because I can tell you now there are a lot of people who took shelter in Byron Bay during the isolation periods of COVID, right. And and just continued the work. And so, so all, and so if you think about that and think about things, some of the technologies that I mentioned before, 3d printing, you know when that's decentralized, you know, when you can, you know, buy a design you know, digitally from New York, London, wherever and then have that printed locally you know, wow, that's, that's amazing rather than having to wait, you know, weeks for it to be you know, dispatched from the UK or from wherever and getting a thousand reminder emails that it's on its way and what happens in a plane. So all of those, all of those things, that's what I mean about the world is going to be decentralized. So we have to think about, you know this urbanization in, you know, in very different ways,

Veronica Morgan: We S we say this, and like, you know, we say, you've said about telehealth, for instance, is one of the axilla things that have been accelerated through COVID. And a lot of people have been viewed, talked about that, you know, it's brought forward things that would have been to be expected to come in a decade or so, but what is interesting, a lot talking to a lot of people in business and psychologists and this, you know, a bit literature coming out about the other aspect of decentralization and working from home, and that is the psychological impact and the desire for people to be part of a community, part of a team, part of a tribe, part of whatever you want to call it. And the physical, the benefit of physically being in an office environment, hearing, you know, the, the water cooler talk, hearing, you know, getting the vibe, picking up things what's going on. There's a level of frustration that's happening in, you know, a lot of people I know that are working in major corporations, where that now they said, well, if you're not an essential worker, you can't come into the office. So they've been working remotely. Now what, for nine months there, 10, there seems to be a sort of a groundswell of people that are saying, well, I don't really want to have this de-centralization all the time, you know, is that being factored into this, this sort of thinking

Rocky Scopellit...: These are all the things that we're now learning. I think the other thing as well, Veronica is the impact that, or, you know, those examples that you've had a mini more I've had on mental health. We, we, we have gone through probably five years of behavioral change, you know, in five weeks. And and, you know, for some yeah, I've struggled with that for a whole variety of, of reasons. And so I don't think we've with saying the full effect of of the impact all of those. And so and so there's never been, I think, a more important time for us to be, you know, watching those things really closely you know, and it, and it invites the question, I think now of what is the future of work. And, you know, and, and, and, and it's not a one size fits all.

Rocky Scopellit...: In other words, you know, the centralist approach, everybody 40,000 people have to come into six buildings, you know, cities scattered around the country. That is what I think we will not see the return off. And I think it's now reading important, I think for a lot of organizations, a lot of people to share their experiences. And, and again, as us, as I mentioned at the very start, you know, be a participant, not a spectator to what's going to happen this decade, we've always met us. And and it's only through that, that I think we're going to see some really highly creative, imaginative ways on, you know, what the future of work will be.

Chris Bates: What's your view on the sort of by going down to remote work from anywhere that also then expands the talent pool for organizations to hire people anywhere. Right. So we don't need people in Sydney. We could have them in anywhere in Australia or now with the access to the global workforce. You know, do you think that then you've got maybe the anti sort of globalization nationalism or the sort of world fight backs, I guess. I mean, what's, how do you think that, that the two strains are going to play at, you know, do you think companies are basically going to start to hire people globally, and that's ultimately when you're Shar your 25 million people versus 7 billion, do you think that Australia needs to be very conscious of how we manage that sort of a global workforce challenge?

Rocky Scopellit...: Yeah, that's a great question. The skills and re skilling is our single biggest issue right now. And, you know, gosh, there's been so many people impacted around the world by COVID. Uh and so what's what, you know, what's what what's important for us right now is to be looking ahead, what are the new and emerging industries what are the skillsets that we require in those industries? And then how do we work between government the private sector to, to re skill people in the right supply to the you know, to the industries and organizations that are going to need them. So, you know, I've, I've got a whole chapter in the in the book on that. And the, the, the, the point here is if we inflammation, intensity is only going to increase of course of time. So you know, our consumption and use of downtime is just going to continue. It's exponential rise. And so the white, you need to think about learning is no longer, you know, the three stage model, you know, primary, secondary, and tertiary it needs to be vice on lifelong.

Rocky Scopellit...: And so, and that's, that's not the responsibility of, you know, government or the responsibility of, you know, industry, it's the responsibility of individuals, right? We responsible for taking ownership of that. What we can look forward to is that the why with which we learn will become, you know, much more you know, immersive by the use of technologies that we were talking about before, such as, you know virtual reality, we'll be able to experience things in the pursuit of learning in highly experiential ways. And so rather than a linear view of learning through text for example, you know, we'll be able to experience things in, in very different ways. And so, you know, the already we have gaps in our skills supply, for example, the Australian information communications computer association predicts that by 2023, we'll have a technologist shortfall in the order of a hundred thousand already, we have a skills shortage in cyber and information security. Where are our data scientists coming from? All of these, you know, that's what I mean, we've got to look to what are the, what are the new industries how do we re skill, you know roles and job types, which will be retired due to automation you know, and technology advancements, and how do we, you know redeploy those skills into the way we need them, that's really the challenge, right? And we've got to, again, use systems leadership to, to answer, answer those questions.

Veronica Morgan: It's quite fascinating because of course, you know, I'm all for it is the role of the individual to take responsibility for their own lives. And you said earlier that the Mark of, of having a future as in a business with the future is it's resilience. And this will have been that, I guess there'll be what's the word, it's almost like a new class of people will be those that are much more adaptive. Those that are able to put their hand up and actually take responsibility and drive their own learning versus those that are sort of, you know, want to play the blame game and look to governments to support them and all the rest of it, you know, so we've got to have a whole new society, so it's going to be very scary for a lot of people I would imagine.

Rocky Scopellit...: Yeah. And look, what I would say is that the comforting aspect of, of that is that that demographic is already here. They referred to as millennials and, you know, people broadly aged between about 19 and 39 years, you know, millennials now, the largest demographic group on the planet. They grew up in a world that has witnessed more change than generations before them. And then the first digital generation you know, back on what we were talking about before, about, you know, adaptability, well, gosh, you know millennials are the most adaptable demographic and, you know, and we're about to now Russia in the generation post-millennials, which are, you know, the gen Z or what I call the tick talkers. And you know, and they've, you know, they've grown up on YouTube, right? They're there. And so that demographic is going to absolutely leap frog, you know, a lot of the traditional ways of learning and go straight on to, you know, this virtual reality, because that's, that's how they've learned to you know, to see the world.

Rocky Scopellit...: And so, you know, one of the questions I didn't ask in the study was, you know, how do we feel about you know, really about millennials you know, over the coming decade lines seem to become leaders of, you know businesses politics of institutions, really just, you know or not more than wanting to people you know, agree that they're going to be you know, much better leaders than those of former generations. And so I think, you know, we're looking to our youth to be, you know, integral into how we create, you know, the decade ahead, funnily enough, there was about 8% of millennials who disagreed with that statement that I say themselves. So that's a, that's, that's quite funny.

Chris Bates: So we have the passing of the Baton. We're not gonna try to solve this problem in the next, we'll leave that for the millennials and to solve these problems.

Rocky Scopellit...: Absolutely. Millennials are absolutely down to fix the inequality that we have in our societies, whether it's, you know, whether it's gender, whether it's actual, whether it's cultural they will fix that. They'll fix a, a range of other issues that generations before them were either unwilling or unable to fix climate change is one of them. So I think we, we will see a whole range of, of new advances socially, culturally, economically by a demographic who has completely different views, two generations before them. Well, that's a message of hope and then having children and, you know and, you know, and, and, you know, I think when you, there's a beautiful word called youth quake, which was the 2017 Oxford dictionary word of the year, and youth quick is defined as a significant social cultural and economic change resulting from, from youth.

Rocky Scopellit...: Now what's fascinating about that is that youth quake was first termed by the insurance chief of Vogue magazine in the mid sixties. And about the mid sixties, gosh, there was, so it was a profound social and cultural political change that was going on all around the world. And for it to, you know, resurface again, five decades later I think is Testament to how, you know, we, we, the world is right now and he's looking for change, you know, there's some studies done by sauce. That looked at questions like, you know, you know, do you want to, you know see you know, leadership returned to what it was before COVID 86% of people around the world said no to your life before COVID, you know and so you know, so again, I think as now you're showing greater, you know, proportionate representation, politically, economically socially you know, we'll see their ideas come to life. And so we should look with great optimism for for what they will contribute to, you know, the coming decade and the decade thereafter.

Chris Bates: I think it's going to be quite Hardy because I think, you know, I don't know if your views on you know, aging population and how long we're going to live in medical advancements, allowing us to potentially live longer and healthier lives when he was going to come in and start to solve the issues that and then they were going to be living longer. And they're going to get all the rewards, I guess, from the change or having to sit on the sidelines and watch again,

Rocky Scopellit...: Well, this is a real problem because you're spot on. All right, Chris, we, we, we, we have we've got the IEG population and the impact of the aging population will unfold and impact us more. So this decade then, you know than, than in the last decade. And if you look at what's referred to as the proportion of working age people defined by the OACD is those between 25 and 64 years versus those of retirement, which is post 65 years Australia has one of the one of the lowest ratios. So what does that mean? It just means that the number of people we have working to support an aging population is going to create quite a challenge in our social systems. And so, so we have to look for technology to be able to be more productive to create new gross in industries that, you know, that aren't there today, because if we think about doing what we, what we do today over the coming decade, we're gonna run into some problems. And so it's become more important when we think about aging population and how we support them through our social systems and the like, to, to, to also think about the role that technology and the new demographics will play that

Chris Bates: Mm. Probably done by four. Yeah.

Rocky Scopellit...: Yeah. Look, I think, look, I would say that they the principles of ownership quickly disappearing around many aspects of our lives. And I've often wondered why perhaps that's taken so long to really take traction in the property world. I'll give you some examples, this notion of, you know, owning cars, this notion of you know of owning CDs, remember those rooms. So this, this notion of ownership is perhaps crumbling around many aspects of our lives. And you know, and, and so again, I've often wondered why it's taken so long for that to really take hold in our mindset around.

Chris Bates: I agree. I think one of my questions I was going to ask you, where do you think that the that's going to shift back the other way, because you know, ones that trend are happy to rent anywhere and move around. I'm going to be flexible. That's what millennials, the rent vesting strategy rent, where you want to live by their investments. But I'm just wondering whether you think that essentially shifting, going back the other way, but what I want now is security and stability in mind, Ruth. And you know, not that uncertainty of the future, I think that's, you know, we wish they wouldn't have had that. We said, we're not an apartment. We say homes.

Rocky Scopellit...: Yeah. Well, we've got to remember that millennials are the first demographic, which stuffed with student debt before they stopped working. Right. So, so, so, so this is the demographic that I think we're going to see all of these things playing out with because, you know beginning the professional life you know, with a completely different set of challenges to perhaps what other generations have had. And so through that, I think, you know we will see entrepreneurship innovation, you know, manifest itself. But we're also seeing, you know, again, what we were talking about before do centralization decentralization you know, will, will change the way people think about sea changes. 

Rocky Scopellit...: You know, do I really need to live in a city? You know so I think, you know, when, when services will become infrastructure such as transport and technology will allow us to leave anywhere. I think that that will, you know, do I really need to leave on the beach in Sydney when you don't have the same lifestyle without urbanization around you, or I can put on the goggles and experience that, that way in the company of friends. And we can all have a holiday in our own different locations and stay together as a family want to go to any of this year, but my partner wants to go to Italy or do without living in your own living room.

Chris Bates: I really appreciate your time and your insights. It's a pleasure, Veronica and Chris, thanks better elephant rider. And this week's elephant rider training.

Veronica Morgan: Well, we've just had a whole interview about the view of the future. And I guess when it comes to buying property, that is something that we do talk about and owning property. We do talk about it, it's a longterm play, right? So therefore when we looking at our own decisions in the context of all this change and, and sentiment, and you know, what the future is going to look like, the future work decentralization, et cetera, et cetera, it could be quite easy, easy for people to get really bogged down in the nitty gritty of it, and also being quite reactionary. But fundamentally we're all living alive. You got one life and there were things that we choose in our lives.

Veronica Morgan: And obviously property is very important part of that. And so how that all fits into the total picture is really important that we have it big picture. We have not so much a plan where you write down everything you want for the next 60 years or whatever, but, but a goal direction shared goals. If you're in a partnership, you know, with kids and all the rest of it, sort of, where do you want your life to go and be thinking with that long lens all the time. Now, obviously we need to be responsive. And I, and I draw a distinction between responsive and reactive. And I think that's the interesting thing we talked about with Rocky there as well, and that, that reaction to macro environmental stuff. And of course we are going to have reactions, but what's also our choice of how we respond.

Veronica Morgan: You know, we also said that the future really easing individuals taking responsibility for their own lives and their own, you know, their own learning, et cetera, et cetera. So I think not being fearful, but being purposeful and having a plan and understanding where it is we want to go the direction we want to go in our life. And I think that that's a really important thing to, for sort of focus on. And obviously Chris going to turn to you now, because as a, as a, I know you're not a practicing financial planner anymore, but that's obviously something that you've had to deal with and work with your clients for years, I would imagine.

Chris Bates: Yeah. I mean, it's, we get two types of clients, ones that are always taking action, and they're very focused on the longer term. And they're just always thinking, what can I do today? That's going to get me further advanced. And they're obviously doers and they're, you know, and their finances usually reflect that. And because many have been many years of doing small incremental and not being afraid to make decisions and not getting analysis paralysis, but then we get you know, the other top of clients potentially even super successful from a, you know, their career or their and they've been spending a lot of time investing on that part of their world when they come to other decisions around their finances or making big life decisions, whether it's where they live or buying a house, they get overwhelmed, get analysis paralysis, and they get sucked in.

Chris Bates: So they go and seek out information and they get hit by the media. And and they can't get that sort of clarity. And focusing on the longer term, what are they ultimately trying to achieve? And prong example was a client last night. You know, they, they, they can't make that next decision because it's, they're not certain, they're not confident of what it's going to be the right decision. And you never really got to know, but you need to take action. So you know, I guess the big learning I think here is, is to, to not be so much focused about what's happening today and what's going to happen over the next year or two focus on the longer term and make decisions based on that. Now, Hey, up to date with what's happening potentially could change and how that's going to impact things like COVID, how's that going to impact your investments, but, you know, don't be, I guess, so fearful about the next couple of years, because that's what the media and the world's kind of applying into a economy go to switch off from it all.

Veronica Morgan: I think too, interestingly enough, just the whole sort of beginning of COVID. And obviously we talked about that in this episode with Rocky as well. That certainly when it all started happening and lockdowns and back in March and early April, and, you know, I really felt quite clearly that, well, you know what life does go on. And, and I guess, you know, at my events years, you know, I've had the GFC, I've had nine 11, I've had, you know, various other sort of traumatic and dramatic events that have unfolded in the world. And, and when I was younger, you do you think, Oh my God will never recover from this, but when you're older, you've got lived experience. And you know, that actually my individual life goes on. And, and I think that that's one of the things is having a discussion with my 14 year old daughter this morning about ageism, funnily enough.

Veronica Morgan: And you know, that is one of the benefits that our lived experience and older people can bring to the table for millennials and for gen ed so that they don't necessarily have to react. And in fee to change that they can realize that if they know what they want in their lives, in terms of where they want to go and what their personal values are and all the rest of it, that they've got their own true North effectively. And when these things happen to buffer this around, they still know fundamentally who they are at their core and what they want. And I think that that's really that guiding the guiding light that each of us needed in our own hearts. If you like where our minds mindset hearts, that will help us work through choosing what the right decision is and the right thing to do, and actually taking action in times of uncertainty,