Episode 175 | Moving regionally: Will it last and will it be sustainable? | Kirsten Craze, Property Journalist

Remote working has opened the door to labour mobility but will is the grass greener on the other side?
In the most recent episodes, we dug deeper into the liberation of labour mobility and the inevitable result of interstate, regional migration. For your benefit explaining how it happened and what the future of Australia may look like. 

Within this episode, we explore its sustainability, questioning the long term viability of these movements. Will regional movers recent property decisions be short-lived and ultimately lead to their return? Or are these pioneers creating thriving suburbs, which have been bankrupt of new internal financial flows; expanding the possibility of future domestic movements?

Prolific and experienced property journalist Kirsten Craze join us for an episode dedicated to the post-Covid sea change, tree change. For those who have been following the podcast since its inception, Kirsten appeared in episode 22, highlighting the issues in headline media and its misleading content relating to the property market. Kirsten’s work has featured in The Daily Telegraph, The Herald Sun, News.com.au, realestate.com.au and Mansion Global. 

Coupling Kirsten’s two decades of experience in the property market and her own sea-change, she answers the questions: is the grass greener on the other side?

RELEVANT EPISODES:
Episode 173 | Buying in Byron Bay: Overhyped or shrewd investment? | Michael Murray
Suburb Trends February 2021 | New popular suburbs post-covid
Episode 22 | How to be a media researcher, not just a reader | Kirsten Craze

KIRSTEN’S ARTICLES:
Real Estate.com | Regional regret? Warnings and potential pitfalls of a COVID-19-inspired property tree change
Real Estate.com | Australian housing: Contemplating a city escape and the possible pitfalls of a COVID-19-influenced sea change

LINKS:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirsten-craze/?originalSubdomain=au

HOST LINKS:
Looking for a Sydney Buyers Agent? www.gooddeeds.com.au
Work with Veronica: https://linktr.ee/veronicamorgan

Looking for a Mortgage Broker? www.wealthful.com.au
Work with Chris: hello@wealthful.com.au

Send in your questions to: questions@theelephantintheroom.com.au

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Please note that this has been transcribed by half-human-half-robot, so brace yourself for typos and the odd bit of weirdness…
This episode was recorded in April 2021.

Veronica Morgan: We all know that regional property prices have been on the rise. Since COVID many people have embraced working remotely and exited our cities for a better lifestyle, but is a sea or tree change. All it's cracked up to be will this trend last are the property prices sustainable.

Veronica Morgan: Welcome to the elephant in the room. This is the podcast where we love to talk about the big things in property that never usually get talked about. I'm Veronica Morgan, real estate agent buyer's agent co-host of Foxtel's location, location, location, Australia, and author of auction ready.

Chris Bates: And I'm Chris Bates mortgage broker. Before we get started, I need to let you know that nothing we say on here can be taken as personal advice. We always recommend you engage the services of a professional.

Veronica Morgan: Don't forget that you can access the transcript for this episode on the website, as well as download our free fall or forecast report, which experts can you trust to get it right? The elephant in the room.com did I, you

Veronica Morgan: Today, we're talking with someone who can speak from experience, not only about her own sea change, but from the Intel she's been gathering from her interviews with other changes over the best part of two decades. Journalist Kirsten craze has been living and breathing bricks and mortar having profiled over a billion dollars worth of prime and plenty of not. So prime real estate internationally. Now her work is featured in titles across NewsCorp, such as daily Telegraph, the Herald sun news.com today you real estate or condo to you and mansion global. She's passionate about falling story behind every property she covers and the markets that move around them, her hunger for a great real estate yarn has taken her behind the Gates of many multi-million dollar estates and through plenty of dilapidated dumps. And two years ago in what must have been a pre pandemic premonition, Kirsten made a sea change back to her hometown on the new South Wales, mid North coast.

Veronica Morgan: And as a result, she's been tracking the change of phenomenon for years, writing several pieces on the topic for various publications. So thanks so much for joining us today. Kirsten, the last time we spoke to you is way back in episode 22 will be for your own Exodus from the city. And we're keen to find out from you what it takes to make a successful sea or tree change.

Kirsten Craze: Ah, well thank you for having me. Yes. That does seem like a bit of a lifetime ago. Three years. Yeah. Yeah. Let's change for everyone in that time.

Chris Bates: I mean, three years ago, completely different plan, I guess. And then you changed your plan and made the sort of tree change or sea change back to your home town, which is probably a little bit different to say someone going into a whole new city they've never lived or any family connection, but you're interesting to say your sort of story of what were some of your fears you had prior to making that big change if they were sort of founded or whether you sort of prove that they weren't even shouldn't have been worrying about them. And just some of the things that maybe you're missing about the city and you know why people are say returning?

Kirsten Craze: Well, I think not just myself, but anyone I'd spoken to over the years pre COVID about moving to the country. A lot of people seem to have the same fears what's going to happen to my career. What's going to happen to my friendship circle. Do I sell out of the city? Because there's this theory that if you sell out of this city, you could never get back in financially. And obviously we can address that in a bit, but everyone, I, there was one theme that when I would interview people over the years, whenever they'd left, the city was the same thing that they wish they'd done it sooner. And I think I fell into that same camp.

Veronica Morgan: Wow. Okay. Now let's, can we unpack that a bit? So we'll get to the, or wished they'd done it sooner a little bit further on, because I've got a little bit of that hypothesis on this. I wonder if there's a point at which they click over and get that realization and if they might bail early, they never get to that point, but that's sort of my hypothesis. And I don't want you to answer that right now. Okay. So you talk about the fears, career, friends, and selling out the city and never been able to get back again now for you personally. I mean, you're a writer, so three, I reckon, you know, I guess you're the poster child for what COVID has offered other people now, right?

Kirsten Craze: Yeah. Yeah. I think it w it was all sort of what, what happens, what happens if you want to go and get another job? And if you're out of the city, you can't sit. If you don't have, there might be jobs, but then, you know, there's not the plethora of opportunities in an actual office. And I was thinking with a pre COVID brain, obviously, like if it all goes pear shaped, I can't just walk into some company communications company. Cause they just don't exist up here. Obviously we've all changed up. Train of thought around that for now.

Veronica Morgan: Although there is one thing for career that's important and that is connectivity as in internet. Yes [inaudible].

Kirsten Craze: Yeah. Do you know what I'm in the region where I'm around Coffs Harbor, that actually was one of the first regional areas to get the NBN. So they actually probably had better connection than some Sydney suburbs quite early on. So that wasn't a problem. I'm not up a mountain top. Like some people can find patchy connections. Yeah. But it's the other type of connection. Also the human connection for the office that we might want to get into in a bit. Yeah. That I think is something that people have to weigh up before they walk out the door of the city. Have you felt looking

Chris Bates: For say new work? I don't know if you've had to, but if you did any sort of location discrimination, like let's say your person you're getting work from is city-based where they, where you're competing with someone else who's city-based and then they say, we're going to give it to them because they see the rest. Or if it's not you any sort of people locally that may have left the city and maybe they're not getting the, the job or the contracts, because they're in say Coffs Harbor, or rather than you know, the city,

Kirsten Craze: You know what that's exactly what I thought was going to happen. And that was one of my fears. I was thinking, let's not tell anyone let's not put it on any of my bio's, that's not put on social media. I didn't want to take a photo of my local area because I thought I want to be, I want to still be known as that city girl, you know? And it's just, I think COVID has probably blown a few of those preconceptions out of the water, but yeah, that was a worry, but I never has anyone ever even I've got strangers coming to me via LinkedIn or what have you. And they don't even ask me where I am. We can have three or four phone conversations or zoom calls. And then they say, Oh, you're not in Sydney. Oh. And then that's the end of the conversation.

Kirsten Craze: And you think what was all the worry about? But that's something that comes with my line of work. It's not with everyone, but I know other people, I know someone up here who works in television and they, as a husband and wife team work on international productions and they do it from a little office above a fish and chip shop. Oh, wow.

Veronica Morgan: A lot of egg cartons all around, no walls. Sorry. Are you talking about the, the the physical connection or the human connection, you know, in the office and all that sort of thing. And I mean, that's something that even city dwellers who are working from home are struggling with even, so it's not necessarily something you only experienced now when you move to original area, but I guess has that resolved itself? I mean, it has to, I mean fact is it has to, but I mean, has that resolved itself in a way that you expected it to, or is it still an issue for me personally?

Kirsten Craze: Mm, yeah. Well, I think maybe it's a bit different. I think it depends on what stage you are in your career. I was already working from my kitchen table before COVID. So I was sort of in that mindset already well, before moving, but I think it depends on the stage of life. You are in your personal life, the stage of your career and the type of career, perhaps in the type of personality you are. And I think a year on from people working from home and Australia has been in a good position that we a lot of people, city tallers have been able to get back into the office in some way, shape or form that people thought it was a great idea to sit at home in their pajamas and work. But it's wearing thin now for a lot of people, especially perhaps those people on the upward trajectory of their career.

Kirsten Craze: A lot of people, I think didn't realize how much career progression is made by the water cooler talk or, you know, going to the pub on a Friday afternoon. And, and it's hard to impress a boss if you're 600 kilometers away, the visibility is an issue, isn't it? Yeah.

Chris Bates: And he said a lot of coworking, local options for you.

Kirsten Craze: There's not a lot where I am. I'm surprised there's not more. I think maybe now a lot of those things did close during COVID and I think now they might be starting to branch out a bit more. I think I'm just wondering whether regionally it's not as big an issue because people do have larger homes. And so they're more likely to be able to have the space at home for a third bedroom that's at office or a fourth bedroom or the den, or, or what have you now what about friends?

Veronica Morgan: You mentioned that and you know, and I know that then you, I'm putting you in a situation where you have to be your own friends, but I also know that, you know, just from first for life experience that when circumstances change and certainly moving from one area to another is a circumstance I've even had it in Sydney, whereas I've moved suburbs. And you know, you've got some friends that stay with you and some friends that don't when you're actually changing suburbs, let alone regions, what's the reality versus the anticipation.

Kirsten Craze: I guess that's, again, it comes down to personality. Some people think, Oh, it'll be easy. I'll just make friends other people, you know, it might be harder, but it's true. You, I think a lot, a lot of people, a lot of Australians make friends out of their office colleagues. And so if you're moving to a new job, you find friends in that office space. If you're moving to a new area, you have to, and you're working from home, you have to really make an effort. And it's hard to make friends as an adult. Yeah. So people do rely on things like joining local clubs, trying to make themselves part of the community. They do lean a lot on their children, I think, and making friends at the school gate. One interesting thing. I find if you sort of from inner Sydney, mothers or older, I was a 40 year old mum, a new mum. And I have to say that some of the parents are close to half my age It's, it's a reality of city versus country life. It's just the way it is. You know, I probably, and I'm not even making a joke, might have some more things in common with the grandparents and the parents. It's just a reality.

Veronica Morgan: It's scary. Well, I'm an almond older mother as well. I'm just imagining myself in that situation. You know, being at the school gate, dropping, dropping my daughter off, along with other key other parents that could actually be my daughter. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

Kirsten Craze: Well, it's, it's the reality. So I think those are the sorts of things that maybe you don't, I mean, we're getting away from property prices and property talk, but yeah, it is a social aspect that I think doesn't come into the equation when people are concentrating on, on facts and figures for them, it making the sea and tree change. But it's

Veronica Morgan: Exactly cause it's all relevant. I mean, the thing is, and, and getting back to my Potter surface, certainly when I was filming the show, we don't know where we looked in, a lot of these sea and tree change areas and always talk to the agents and, and wonder how long people stayed, you know, sort of starry-eyed bushy, Todd, this idea, this, this utopia of, of having a seal tree change, they go there and do they stay, are they happy? Does life add up? Does it, does it live up to the expectation? And a lot of them would say to me are about half of them turn around and go back in a year. And so beaten, you know, leading into my hypothesis that if someone says, I wish I had done it sooner, I'm suspecting. They wouldn't say that in the first year.

Kirsten Craze: Yeah. Look, I have come across cases of people who did have that regret. And some of them do go back immediately. I guess it depends how, whether you've rented or whether you've bought, whether you sold up at it depends on how you've, how you've started that change. But I have come across people who have said that they would have given up, they would have left and then friends or family or support network has said, why don't you just give it one more year? Or why don't you just try until this point? And then they do get past that point of homesickness or, or whatever you want to call it. And then they, they, they pass that level of regret because it is a bit scary in the beginning. And there's a lot of, why did I do this? Like with any big life change.

Veronica Morgan: And of course, if it's successful, you know, that third issue that you had, you talked about career, you talked about friends and you talked about, well, what happens if I sell out of the city? And you know, I can't get back into the city if it doesn't work. And if it's successful, that doesn't matter. You know, like, yes, you've embedded yourself in a new area and, and life is good. But I imagine that there's a lot of misconceptions leading into a move like this. And, and I guess it's the, where the dissatisfaction would lie in terms of the gap between the misconception and reality. Yeah. So what I mean, and I'm not just talking about your experience, but certainly I know that you've been interviewing a lot of people. Where do you think their biggest gaps are? Look,

Kirsten Craze: I think that some of the gaps are probably around and maybe the eight A's of reversing the decision. I think probably it's a lot harder than people think for many reasons for the property price, reason that we've alluded to, but also the emotional toll. It takes the fear of failure. And then if you throw children into the mix, you've had to enroll them into schools. They've had to say goodbye to friends, find new friends, and then maybe do it all over again in a year or two. So that, and then that puts a strain on the family. And I've also interviewed people. Who've had marriage breakdowns who maybe they're not solely blaming the tree or sea change, but they're saying it really didn't help. And maybe sometimes that's a reason why people do leave the city because they think we need a bit of a kick up the relationship rear-end and it, and it's, you know, it's not going to fix the problems that are underlying.

Kirsten Craze: And I did interview a lawyer who has a practice in regional Victoria. And she said, just has seen not just through COVID, but in the last 10 years or so, a real uptick in couples having strain. And a lot of it is around making a decision to move to an area and it just hasn't worked out. And then how do you, how do you break that relationship? How do you then if one party wants to leave, the other one wants to stay, you've got shared assets and adult can all become very messy. Well, especially with kids potentially in two very different locations. And that's, that's a, it's a whole recipe for conflict and what's hard to do one weekend on one weekend off a hundred kilometers away. Yeah. And, and, and if the parents aren't, co-parenting harmoniously,

Chris Bates: We're starting to see this already in the city where people are getting priced out and they thought what was possible and all working towards it, saving hard, working on their incomes. And then, you know, last year it was all going to happen. And then the market ran on them and it ran to a point where it's just no longer possible to be anywhere near the areas they want to be. This could happen, say on the beaches, it could happen. You know, down the Shire, it could be the North of Sydney. There's lots of pockets where prices have moved quite considerably. And the time for them to try to catch up, to get into those prices, that markets could even run further on them. And so they're coming to us and say, well, we just don't know where to go. And it's a really tough situation where they're going, well, we're going to move locations.

Chris Bates: Ultimately we don't want to, but we're going to do it to buy a house. And I feel like a lot of people moved to the regions do do that. They'll go to central coast or North of Woolongong or et cetera, because they, their first option, isn't a preference when they haven't really tested it. You know, they haven't, the heart's not in it, but they're just coping that, that they go there and love it. And I think that's probably drives a lot of people coming back because they never really wanted to do it in the first place. Have you sort of met that type of personality where they just went for affordability and even though they got what they wanted, something affordable, ultimately it's not what they really wanted.

Kirsten Craze: I think that the test driving aspect is really important. And I think that might be what some people don't do or they don't do it properly. I mean, you think you test drive a car, you test drive you can test drive a mattress and in 90 days, send it back, you know you can send anything back. But if, you know, I think what I've found is a lot of people will have spent maybe a decade every summer going to the same caravan park in a small town on the beach, or, or they, they know of a location because they've spent many years or they remember that fond memories of spending summers in the 1980s as a child. And then they think I want that place, but that place could have changed that place during winter could be very different. The people who live there and go to the schools and work in the offices, they might not be the same types of people that you met on the beach. You were all happy

Kirsten Craze: On holiday. You know what I mean? Like you need to sort of, it's, it's even hard to test drive something just on the weekend, going to have a coffee in a small town. It's, it's, it's hard because it's not reality. And what I think, and Veronica, I think you've said this many times is it's, it's always a good idea to rent somewhere for a bit and, and try, try it out if you can. Or we see if you've got to put kids in school that makes it a bit more difficult, but the problem is at the moment you can't rent in regional Australia, that's test drive. So it's, it's a bit of an issue at the moment.

Chris Bates: And the cost of renting might be a year out of the market. And when, you know, last year was obviously a big rise, and I'd probably say there's still more rises to go for a lot of these regional places, because there's still people moving there. And as the cities get more expensive because the cities are now sort of really driving the growth, the desire to move to these sort of semi rural locations or outskirts of cities is going to continue to be there because there's still going to be an affordability option for people. So, you know, yes, you could say, go rent up there and see how it feels. But, you know, when I made a change to North beach, if I went and rented up where we are, that would have been a 20 to 30% cost by taking that risk.

Veronica Morgan: It's just in retrospect, you know, that, you know, there were many, many, many years where the prices up there were flooded that attack. So, you know what I mean? And so it, at a different point of time, you could have gone up there and rented and it would have had no material impact whatsoever.

Chris Bates: Yeah. Hans, but the current market is kinder, is a hard to rent,

Veronica Morgan: But it also, I know, and this is the problem though, is that people, it's the recency bias, we're all running around in panicking. I mean, I have to hose our clients 10 all the time. It's like, you know, the amount of frenzy out there is, is nuts. And it's like, you still don't want to buy a really terrible asset in a place you don't want to live. Or, you know what I mean? You don't want to rush and buy something. And then, and you know, what's that feels rushing and repented now, I think I'm missing mixing my metaphors. I'm missing my sayings, but you know, it was it acting heist and repentant leisure. And that is, there's nothing truer about the property manager that is sort of the property market than that, in that, that, you know, you might like it and you might go far.

Veronica Morgan: Wow, thank God I did that. Or you might go, Jesus. If I had a moment, you know, if I just took it one step back, I just would've thought differently about that. And that's the problem is that the only time they get a breather to actually reflect on their decision is after they've made it. And it's such a monumentally costly decision. If you get it wrong, it's hard. I, I don't have an answer for these systems.

Kirsten Craze: And I think at the moment, it's, it's hard to know what the future holds for regional areas, because it's going through an experience that we just haven't seen before. You know you, you never had to act quick in a regional market that was never FOMO. You know, not that it might come back to that. It's, it's very hard to imagine we're going to

Kirsten Craze: Be having these huge prices in regional property, zero vacancy, and just, you know, houses selling within days. That's very hard to believe that will be sustained. But then again, you know, we probably all thought that a million dollars for a house was crazy 30 years ago.

Veronica Morgan: I, I think it's true that it won't be sustained, you know, because the thing is that these markets do ebb and flow and, and there will be a time when it's not, it's no longer like that and will, and everyone will sit on their hands and they won't remember what the booming times, and they won't think the process can never get any better. You know what I mean? And like now they never think they can fall. So it is a problem that we all sort of act in, in, in the context of what's happening right now. And I think that's a real risk for, for a regional area of buying in regional areas. But I also am interested in, in from your experience in the people that you've been interviewing and your own experience what change, how are regional towns changing as a result of, you know, This Exodus from cities?

Kirsten Craze: Ah, interesting. I did have a chat with the demographer Simon, Kirsten mocker recently. And he talked about regional resentment. I think that's what he called it. And it was this sort of idea that the locals, you know, the ones that have been maybe since birth or for decades there will inevitably be some kind of resentment that builds up around people that have come in and they're effectively the ones pushing the property prices up. They're the ones filling up the homes and other people, you know, don't have access to.

Chris Bates: Have you seen that on your sort of local area though?

Kirsten Craze: Haven't really seen it. It, it may well be happening. Maybe I don't see it because maybe they think I'm one of those people. I feel like getting a t-shirt saying I was here before COVID or I went to primary school here. I just went away for a while. Yeah. So I think that that will be something, I think some of the things, culturally, I think I've noticed a few more cultural things starting to change that art galleries, film festivals. So this isn't just COVID, but it's sort of like a maturity that maybe wasn't here when I left in the nineties, that that could have happened anyway, but I just, I feel like a lot of people and when you look behind it, they are people who often did grow up and then they come back, but they've had a, a city or an international experience and they've brought back some of what they've learned and opened film festivals and started you know, new art galleries or classes and things that just didn't exist before that.

Veronica Morgan: Yeah. It's a classic of that, Mona, you know, it's like that example on steroids where, you know, the prodigal son

Kirsten Craze: Came back really. And then, and so I guess launch a city onto a, onto a global stage in, in a way. Yeah. You also see it in the cafes, the S the city prices here. So you do wonder who pays $22 for toasted sandwich, because I don't know too many locals that'd be keen to do that for too long. So, yeah,

Chris Bates: So religious in a certain pocket Coffs Harbour, because my view is that, like, you know, people are going to escape the city. They go for lifestyle reasons. I don't affordable price. Yes, there's the people returning home, but even the people returning home want to live in the best area of that city, because that's where they've always gone on weekends. And, you know, a lot of their friends they're living. So, you know, from, from Newcastle, you know, I've got lots of clients going back to Newcastle and, you know, they all want to live around Mary with her pretty close to Mary, where the beach is close to. They can get really well

Kirsten Craze: Apparently. Is it bar beach in Newcastle? That's going to be a $3 million suburb before too long, according to real estate.com to you.

Chris Bates: Well, it would be that the Hill, just along those sort of beaches, you know, there's a certain pocket where everyone wants to be. And so all the locals, all the people who aren't from Newcastle want to buy around there because, and because they can buy a lot more than they could in say, Sydney for the same money and they're taking Sydney incomes. And then you've got the people who are say from that city, or say, Coffs Harbor and moving back there, and they want to leave in a certain pocket of Coffs Harbor. So, so really there's, the city is not all going up. And so where the demand goes is to the real sort of top hand of the market. And you're saying that where you're getting the expensive cafes, and everything's just in a small confined space,

Kirsten Craze: There are pockets. And it's very interesting when you look at how some pockets are performing. And I did some sort of did some numbers yesterday, just looking at, there are parts of the beach area around Sawtelle where you're getting houses listed at 1.5 to $2 million. If you're to go maybe about three kilometers West over a train line, you can get a very comfortable house for under 500,000, very comfortable on a bigger block than you would at the beach. And it's only a couple of minutes drive to this end, and you'll always get a car space. It's not like you're moving, you know, to the Western suburbs of Sydney. And you've got to drive 45 minutes to get to the beach. And when you get there, you can't park anywhere. You know, it's, it's, you're effectively living the same lifestyle. You just can't maybe smell the ocean or feel it, but what a huge price difference, you know, in just a couple of kilometers. And, and that is like you said, it's the effect of that real. If I'm going to leave the city, I've got to have the best option of where I'm going.

Chris Bates: So we're saying that exact same thing. Like, so clients are going well, if I moved to the central coast, but I'm only going to live in a VOCA or, you know, at a, or Beto Bay, or, you know, literally these handful of suburbs. If I can't get that, then I don't want to move there. And so I feel like there's this whole lot of talk around sort of regional investing. And so, because as if migration, but that means that, you know, you're saying that people aren't being selective on what they're buying and where they're buying. And a lot of people would just say buying investment properties in regional towns without understanding that ultimately the market's splitting into, you know, you've got these certain postcodes and certain parts of those postcodes that are highly attractive to people on a lot of money and hiring coms. And then you've got the rest is what the locals can afford. And what are you saying that, and through your conversations, a similar thing.

Kirsten Craze: Yeah. But I think perhaps those properties and those suburbs that are on for want of a better expression, the wrong side of the tracks. Yeah. They're the better investment opportunities, you know, w w w why spend $2 million on a property? I mean, if we're talking about investment, if you want to spend that much to live in, and that's your choice, but if for something, if it goes pear shaped, or you need to go back to the city for a reason, and you're going to rent that place out, I think it's very hard to get the kind of rent that you would want or need in a $2 million property than if you'd bought further away. Those are proving to be quite good investments.

Chris Bates: I think you'd find that the longer term history of growth on those two properties would be dramatically different. And there were audit always would have been a gap, you know, the 500 to a 1.5 would have been a gap, but that gap wouldn't have been a million dollars. Let's say it is now would have been 500. Yeah. And so, you know, even back 10 years ago, you would have said, okay, well, it's still 300 versus 800. What sounds like a better investment. But over the last decade, you would have found the growth over the aspirational suburb would have been a lot better. Yes. And even when you come back, I think in 10 years time, you'll be like, well, ultimately there's a fine night of wealth in Coffs Harbor. And everyone who does well in Coffs Harbor will want to live in Sawtelle and the right type of the tracks, not on the other side of the tracks. So you get this flow of wealth into the premium part of the market, but also the flow of wealth from outside the city, people have got a lot of status and they don't want to let drive to the beach. And so people who've got money will still want to believe in those suburbs. And so you'll still find because of the scarcity of that location, the growth over the longer term will still be better than say something that's got more supplied isn't as aspirational, and you can build. And there's lots of other stuff,

Kirsten Craze: I guess it just depends what your price point is and how long you want to hold it.

Chris Bates: Yeah. The risk is that you're right. If you move back, but ultimately people are moving back. Then a lot of people need that money to go back to their next decision. And so it's not really got the ability to keep a house in say, cost Harbor as an investment property. They have to sell up, take that money and then buy somewhere else. So I guess it's just a dangerous sort of buying it, the more affordable part of a regional city, because you'll find that that's where a lot of the locals want, which is local incomes. And you've got not as many sort of hiring comes sort of going there. So it makes sense

Veronica Morgan: Pushing up prices thing. But it, we were talking with Michael Murray from Byron Bay, a couple of episodes back, and it's the same thing. It's the interlopers and newbies are all coming with more money. They're buying the more expensive properties. And that becomes sort of a completely different flavor. You know, that there's the different, you don't have the old locals living there anymore. You know what I mean? It's just like a satellite suburb of Sydney or Melbourne. Yes. I guess that's the danger, isn't it? When you've got that sort of thing happening, but when you're talking about regional areas, you know, you're supposedly going there because you want lifestyle. Right. And I'm beaches obvious, right. It's like, well, I can afford to be close to the beach where in Sydney or a really the cities in Australia with, with beaches, aren't they, when you think about it.

Veronica Morgan: Yeah. So yeah, charter living by the beach in Sydney is it's ridiculously expensive. And so then you've got all this opportunity up and down the coast, so that's fine. But what else, you know, like, I mean, if, if, if that doesn't keep you occupied all the time and if you're not a mad surfer, what else are people chasing? Are they chasing the quiet life? Are they chasing, you know, the idea of slowing down? Is that why people want to leave the city? Or is it purely just this idea about, well, I can have a better life, you know, because I can afford it. '.

Kirsten Craze: Well, I think it's a little bit of everything, isn't it? People seem to be, especially since COVID the chasing space. Yeah. I think a slower pace of life, but for a lot of people I've come across. The slower pace of life has worked wonders for everyone in the family, but there can also be people that just had not anticipated what slow means and, and stay away. Well, some towns are very sleepy, you know, they, the, that was the attraction for some people when they got there, but then they realized that it's just too sleepy for them. So again, it comes back to seven o'clock. Oh yeah. Or, you know, shops are closed at 12 o'clock on a Saturday. We, we were looking for a new fridge at the moment and went to a shop, an electrical shop, and it was closed on Sunday. And I thought, Oh God. And then when the following week we went, we went in and one of the salespeople said, yes, well, our boss just decided that we're a family business. We're going to close on Sundays. And I thought, you know, what good for them. But it is just, you just expect everything to be open all the time and you know what, it's good that it's not well, in my opinion. And that if that's what you're chasing well, yeah.

Veronica Morgan: If prices are going up and it's costing a lot of money to live there, you know, you get, you're paying a $23 toasted sandwich and all the rest of it, you're not really getting a financial break. You know, you're still gonna have to work hard.

Kirsten Craze: Well, yes. And I think that was one of the things when I was writing a pros and cons list to maybe discuss with you, is that if affordability is the driver, that's been on the top of the agenda for a lot of changes for a long time, that affordability is shrinking. There might be an adjustment coming, but at the moment, you're not getting the bang for buck. That was always the big driver to leave town. And increasingly you're not even getting a bang for buck in the other lifestyle factors. You know, the daycare that my child is in is exactly the same price as it was in Sydney per day. So, you know, there's not, it's, it's not all, you can't put all your eggs in the affordability basket anymore, if that's why you're leaving.

Chris Bates: And are you finding that people are moving there, that aren't from a location that they also then find other people that have done the same thing in that location. And, you know, because they haven't got big networks, they also then gravitate towards each other and then build friendships and build communities and little. So you've almost got like a subset of a community getting built just because of people are moving there. You know, you get this in international cities, for example, when you went to London, a lot of people who aren't from London, then all of a sudden become families, you know, friends basically have you sort of heard sort of those things, which are sometimes harder to, to build those networks in cities, because people have got their, you know, strong local links. And you're not sure are you from here or are you not here? Did you move here? Are you finding that that sort of is more obvious in regional towns that people aren't from there and

Kirsten Craze: I hadn't come across it too much necessarily speaking with people must happen though. My partner is French and I lived in France for a long time as well. And I don't know how it's happened, but we've ended up meeting just about every French speaking person in, in the region. And that's been a great little group to be part of because essentially they're all outsiders. Some of them have been here for 30 years, but yeah. So I think you do, you sort of find your, whether you, like, what, what little hobby do you like doing? I mean, and that's sort of how you will meet people, especially if you're working from essentially your kitchen table or what have you. Yeah.

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Veronica Morgan: Did I, you, Christina, you said you were listing out pros and cons prep for this, this, this catch up. So run through the pro. I mean, look, the pros are sort of a bit obvious aren't they? But I was going to say that to you. My price list is actually shorter than my cons. And I have to say, I'm an advocate for, for a change if it's right for you. But I was really surprised when I put my list together that the pros are shorter than the cons,

Kirsten Craze: But the cons are not, I don't do it list era. This is what you need to be aware of list, you know? So not so much cons, but a B where do you know what I mean? Totally. So, yeah. Would you like me to start with the pros please do. Okay. So I think we touched on this is that one of the big things is the historically cheaper entry points, right? That's what people are chasing affordability and space, especially in the last 12 months or so people have realized how much they appreciate gardens or outdoor spaces they might not have in the city. Then another thing people are chasing is, is the lifestyle. You know, whether it's the beach, the Bush living on the river, I've spoken to some agents in river towns along the Murray, and they are booming because people find that that's an option they'd like to live on the riverfront.

Kirsten Craze: So it's not all sea or tree. There's a bit of river in there too. And then there's sort of a subset of people that think, you know what? I really want to be sustainable. I want to go off grid on a live in the Bush. And although I know someone who did that in Redfern, I think he's in Redfern is living completely sustainably. It's not that easy in the city. So, and then obviously whether people are chasing perhaps more agreeable weather, a slower pace of life, which is great. I touched on that depending on how slow you'd like it. One thing I found too, is that some people like the aspect of maybe being a big fish in a little pond, rather than a little fish in a big pond, you can get the analogy. I think sometimes, especially if you're entrepreneurial, I suppose if you want to start your own business, sometimes it can be hard to kind of make a way in a crowded city.

Kirsten Craze: But if you have a great idea and you move to a smaller area, it might work really well. If you're the only one doing it. And I put a fun one at the end, this is the one thing that I didn't really occur to me is always being able to find a park and a free one. I was arriving to almost every appointment really early because I had that Sydney brain of take it off. Got it. I've got to get there. How long will it take me to get there? Then I've got to go around the block three times to find a park. Then I've got to find the coins or the machine's not working. And now I can park out the front of every appointment and where I've got to go. And I'm right there. Yeah. And, maybe that's not the top reason, but it's a really nice and I'd, I'd discovered.

Chris Bates: And what about schooling?

Kirsten Craze: I've seen, you've got kids today at school age, or I have one son, but he will be going to school next year, but that's now the interesting thing is the local school here. They told me they're already full. They have to take children that are in their area. And it's a really shoe. When I look at how this local area is changing in 10 years, time is the local high school going to be big enough because there's only one and that must be happening all over regional Australia. And I think schooling is Something that really needs to be thought of and maybe primary schools, not necessarily something that people are too worried about their confidence in the public schools, but high schools. So this becomes another issue for a lot of people, depending on the type of child you have.

Chris Bates: And that can be even a big issue in the cities as well. You know you know, there is you know, where they're forcing you to go in and the private option, which is also fraught with danger now. And just by cost is you know, et cetera. So people still want to send their kids to public school, but there's no great public schools or the public schools. Aren't what they really would want for their child. So going regionally sometimes it's you're not escaping a problem. That's was already a problem in the city.

Veronica Morgan: Yeah. Yeah. Although less options, you know, in the city is sort of, yes, it still might be difficult to get into wherever you choose to send your child, but you do have more options at your, yeah. You might have a couple of high schools to choose from, but in some areas there's just the one. So that's something I think that maybe people who've got very small children or maybe they haven't started having children yet they maybe don't think 12 years in in the future. And maybe you shouldn't do on that, but it's just something to think about you. I have friends that moved to and I can 2009 and their son at the time was four. And yeah, I remember speaking to my friend probably about six years later saying, Oh my God, I hadn't actually really thought about high school. Now. We're sort of thinking, well, what do we do?

Veronica Morgan: Do we put him in, you know, can we get them in private school? Do we put them in the public school? What sort of kid is he going to be? Like, what are these friends like? You know, cause the cohorts really important. It doesn't matter where you are. The cohorts important do us in, in a boarding school. Like all of a sudden it's like, Oh, bugger, you know, do it, does it go to Brisbane? Does it go to, you know, there's all of that going down. And it was like, I hadn't even thought of that. And I just was thinking about catching more waves.

Kirsten Craze: Yeah. And I know, I know a lot of people who are thinking the long game and they are putting their children through a religious education from kindergarten. Even if their family are not religious at all, but it's because the religious high school is a better option than the public one. And it's the pathway to get through because if you jump ship from public to religious it's, you might not get in because you haven't followed that trajectory the whole way through it in.

Veronica Morgan: Sydney too. But it's like, cause it's the affordable private school route, you know, it's like, Oh, I'm going to get my kid Christen so that they can get cheaper education. It's just like, I don't know, I'm too much of a agnostics.

Chris Bates: It was such a big topic schooling. It's literally every day, you know, a lot of our clients are Prudential, like sort of young couples and families and whether they're having kids or not, but it's, it's going, does come up and it's such a big driver for people. And so if they're the regional shift, really thinking that through longer term makes a lot of sense, but schools change quite dramatically, quite fast, you know, different generations are changing as well. So it's so hard to say, well, kids born today or, you know what it's going to be like in 13 years time or 12 years time for high school.

Kirsten Craze: Yeah. Because that local PR principal's not going to be probably in that job in exactly 12 years time.

Chris Bates: Yeah. And they could have a big funding boost and they could build, you know, all these sort of nicer facilities and attract better teachers. And the teachers that were working in the city that, you know, have worked at the best schools and moved back to Coffs Harbor. And so you just, it's so hard to see 12 years down the line. Yeah.

Veronica Morgan: Well, the kids are recalcitrant, you know, my daughter doesn't exactly do, you know, try to give her the best opportunity in life. And she does not grab them with both hands that way. So you know what I mean? It's, that's her life. That's her, that's her cost to bear now. But you know, when she's older, she'll look back at, Oh, I had all these opportunities. I didn't take them and I can't make her take them. Yeah. You know, and you just got to hope that they, they will Gress then. So for all the planning and you know, that you do ultimately you've got human beings as children and they're going to, they're going to do with it, what they want to do with it. Really. Yeah. And you don't know when they're a toddler, if they're going to be academically minded or not. No.

Kirsten Craze: It's like, although I've been watching old people's home for four year olds and there's a couple of little, little kids that, that yet they're going to be academic anyway. Sorry. Let's move to the cones. We sort of touched on one there with schooling and yes. What else is on there? Well, I think I also touched on, does the affordability equation still stack up? I think we did cover that. I think that's again at the top of the list because affordability is what, at least what people say that they're chasing. And so if, if it's actually not that much cheaper, it's a huge change for you know, a shrinking divide

Chris Bates: Is in two sense though, isn't it, it's affordability on housing. And then there's affordability of a cost of living, you know, your fruit and veg and just ease of, you know, petrol or, you know, you're not driving as much, these sort of things that, you know, do you find that yes, you can get a cheaper house, but you should be able to get a cheaper cost of living, especially if you're not just buying $22 a toasting Sawtelle. But you know, you can live a cheaper life ultimately.

Kirsten Craze: Yeah, I think, well, I think it depends on, on your life style. Yeah. I think some things, I think like I'd mentioned the daycare, some things are just as expensive as they are in the city. And you do wonder why, so I, I suppose it's, it's a bit hard to add up every dollar and cent that you spend and try and, and calculate the difference. But there are the big things, like you said, there's this travel, but sometimes you actually are driving more because things are more spread out. So and you don't have public transport that you can rely on. And sometimes regional petrol can be pricier than the city because there's less competition. And then you've got to factor in, if you thought that you might be flying

Kirsten Craze: To a capital city once a month or once a fortnight for work, then that can, that can add up. We've just lost one of the budget airlines here. I think we're getting another one, but you know, that was a surprise. And suddenly if there's only Quantas, then there's no competition and train takes approximately eight to nine hours to get to Sydney. So you can't rely on the train system to get you and driving, you know, five or six hours. So you got to factor in if, if I'm one of those workers that needs to be in the city once a fortnight or once a month. And that's a lot of people do that or even just for a day for a meeting, it's a considerable cost. So those sorts of things that you need to factor in, it's all very well to say, I'll go to Byron and there's an airport that will have me in Sydney within an hour, but how much is that going to cost you again? And again,

Chris Bates: Absolutely. We had a client new down the South coast, near an airport down there. And he was super excited around a new air that sort of, you know, new what's a called route, I guess, a new airlines sort of was coming in and, you know, but that had been delayed from memory multiple times. And so, you know, you moved down there thinking it's going to happen. I'm not sure if that has actually happened yet, but you know, but it had been delayed. And so in and things can change. I know in the airport you know, all of a sudden, you know, there's a few airlines there and then all of a sudden they go and then there's no competition war. And you know, it's $400 to go to the city once a week for 200.

Kirsten Craze: And that happened here, there were flights to Melbourne, then they stopped the flight to Brisbane. Then they stopped the coming back sometimes just once a week. Yeah. So yeah, the, the there's a lot of that that you, you have to consider. Yeah. Yeah. I think I sort of also touched on another one of the cons is just to really, you've got to know that how well do you really know the neighborhood? And from one side of a suburb to another, that disparity I talked about before in that price difference is it's all the same postcode. So if you are looking at the black and white and the facts and figures of median prices and, you know, say what you will about median prices, but it's at least it's a guide to help people work out what things sort of cost. They can, it can be different from street to street from, from corner of a suburb to corner of suburbs, much like it can be in Sydney.

Veronica Morgan: So if something looks like it's a really good bargain, there might be a reason for that, especially at the moment. So you've got to know what corners, you know, there's some areas around the whole of the mid North coast and probably a lot of regional areas where there is a government housing interspersed with some private dwellings. And so that can really change the resale value of your home, for example, that's, and this is all that sort of local Intel that, that you would start together. If you were able to rent in an area and actually start to experience, then start to meet the locals and start to hear this stuff. Because of course this is local knowledge that of course locals don't even bother necessarily out. Cause it's just

Kirsten Craze: Accepted. They know it, they don't think, Oh, they don't think it's an issue. Yeah. I spoke to one, one changer who had then after a few years after having bought where they bought, realized that they'd bought on the wrong side of town because in peak hour, if, if that was really a peak hour, but it just became longer to get home. And because of limited road options, things got congested at certain times of the day. So you couldn't get across town. And she said, well, if I'd known the layout of the town better, I would have bought on this, the other side of town. So yeah. Yeah. And then there's rivers that flood. And then there's, there's all sorts of, of that local knowledge stuff that, that people in the know won't buy on that side of there because of that. And this started there because of that.

Veronica Morgan: So for you, I mean, you grew up, you know, you had your childhood there, but as an adult coming back, did you, did, did that help you or, I mean, I, you know, when you walk back in, do you think you'd just know this stuff or do you even, even you, as returning, do you have to sort of think, okay, now I need to look at it a little bit more critically.

Kirsten Craze: Yeah. Well I think this is where it does. It's all very well and good to say, do your homework, but, and I have always visited. I've got family who've remained here, so I've always come back to visit, but there's certain things that even visiting yearly or more than once a year that I hadn't realized until I come back permanently. And so you're worried you're going to offend someone.

Veronica Morgan: Ah, well, I'm just, I don't know. I think

Kirsten Craze: It's probably things that I've already discussed, like certain, certain patches of, of the region that I think probably

Veronica Morgan: Play more better advantage or different lives,

Kirsten Craze: Different lifestyle or, or just, yeah, different even like, you know, it's been a long time since I was growing up here. So the traffic congestion, I know it sounds funny saying from a PO price Sydney side, but it actually can sometimes be worse in a way, because if you know, Sydney, you'd do your little detours and get around things or you know, what time of day, but there can be certain times when it's just you stuck on a road and you don't know, you think there can't be that many people living in this town, but you know, there are people come in and out from neighboring towns to work in, in larger areas. And I don't know, it's those, all those little things that you, you just don't know, or I didn't realize happened until I lived here, but I can't think of any other specific examples just now.

Veronica Morgan: Maybe they'll come to me. The traffic, one's a classic though, because it, I mean, often people say, Oh, look, you know, I don't want to go and rent somewhere. I don't want to really uproot my life and go there. And then, you know, I'd rather just buy and you know, all we've gone up there every year and I've, I've got up there in summer and I've gone up there and winter I've gone up there in autumn and I've got up there and bring it. I've checked it out different times, but you know, it doesn't replicate actually the day-to-day experience of it. Does it? I mean, cause that's when you suddenly go, Oh it dawns on you. Yeah. Sometimes a

Kirsten Craze: Day. Yeah. Yeah. The friends and family thing was another thing on my cons list. I obviously I came back to where there was friends and family, but often people are leaving friends and family. And so that does pose a problem, especially if you had grandparents in Sydney, you know, if that's where you grew up or Melbourne or wherever you're moving from, suddenly you might not have that family babysitter and family support. I did a story recently on a tree and see change regret. And one person I spoke with, she said the support network was not there part of why they moved just because her husband was fly in, fly out worker. So they thought, well, you know, they've got a little kid, so he's flying in, flying out. It doesn't really matter where they live, you know? And, and she felt so isolated and, and she, she couldn't even even get the tires changed on her car. I think she said she was saying, because she would've had to leave the car in town all day and they lived in the Bush. And so there's certain things that I think, yeah, you need to really factor in the sup how important the support network is. Obviously you can have a certain amount of support over zoom or FaceTime, but it's not the same as having physical network nearby.

Veronica Morgan: Some people are great organizers and think about everything. Some people overthink, but you know, the really pragmatic practical person would never put themselves in that situation. You know, there might be more of a dreamer perhaps in more of a visionary, you know, but it's sort of the reality of it may, may have been, you know, quite starkly different. I'm interested in that Monica, you wrote in regret. Can you send us a link and we'll put it in the show notes. Sure. Thanks. Now, what, what else is on the cons list?

Kirsten Craze: Again, something that we, we sort of touched on, I thought is the distance from your work or your head office. It's coming back to that idea that you can really learn from colleagues. You have this tribe of people that you're around and you can maybe climb the ladder in your industry. If you're able to go to industry breakfasts or catch up with the boss at the water cooler, those sorts of things that haven't maybe post a problem yet. It's only sort of been a year of remote or less than a year of remote working for some people. But as the years go on, it might be all very well and good that your boss says, okay, we never expect you to be back in the office. You can work remotely, but the next boss might not be like that. And if you've packed up everything and gone away, cause you thought that you were fine to work at home, or maybe you want to change careers. You want to change industries. Maybe the next industry is not going to be as flexible as the one you're in now. And then we, if you are in a regional area, your options might be limited if, if you decide to change.

Veronica Morgan: Yeah. Well, I mentioned that that's a real big one for people at the beginning of their career for sure. And which is the very time when affordability is sort of a biggest issue, isn't it?

Kirsten Craze: Yeah, absolutely. If you, if you're leaving the city because you're a first time buyer and you, you want to get on the ladder, but you know, you, you also want to have great earning power and, and, you know, climb that career ladder. You can do a certain amount, I suppose, in some industries remotely, but nothing can probably replace physically being there.

Veronica Morgan: Other cons there's a big cons. I mean, they really quite, quite momentous. So you've got to sort of overcome that he's not make a successful.

Kirsten Craze: Yeah. And I think that I talked about making friends we've touched on that. Obvious the people need to be aware that they have to make more of an effort. I think sometimes when you're living in a city, surrounded by lots of people, perhaps lots of like-minded people, it can be very organic the way that you make friends, because you sort of gravitate towards similar things, but you can have a mix of different people with very different political views or views on a lot of different things, all in a very small environment in regional areas. So it might be harder to find your tribe. So that's something that I think people that they may think about it, but they might not perhaps realize that it is up to you. Yeah. It is more of an effort. I think,

Veronica Morgan: Imagine it that's a real biggie when it comes to the success of it. Or if you feel like you belong and you know, you've got your place, then you're going to be happier. And we were we're tribal, tribal species, aren't we?

Kirsten Craze: Yeah. And another thing I thought that I think Chris, you sort of talked about that is getting out can be harder than getting in the property market. We're talking about very exceptional circumstances at the moment, but traditionally regional property takes a lot longer to sell and it can sit on the market. Like I've seen places and in lifestyle neighborhoods pre COVID that you would think that Sydney siders or Melburnians would jump at and they just sit on the market for a really long time. And you know, that may happen again, there's even a place near where I am. That's been on the market for 400 days. So that's pretty much pre COVID until all through COVID and it is opposite a beautiful beach area like it's so is that purely price? I think it is, but would have to be, but still, that might be that that vendor's issue.

Kirsten Craze: But I think that, yes, I think traditionally people coming from the city, if they don't like where they are can sort of sell it and buy something else. And the transaction is a lot faster. And so I think people need to be prepared that even though they might've jumped on a home and bought it within a week in seven years time, or whenever you might think about moving, it might not be like that. Or even in one year's time, if you decided that wasn't the right change for you, it could take longer to sell. It's such a relevant point.

Veronica Morgan: I remember just filming around the country and, you know, I started off with very much a city mentality. It's like, well, all properties has a price at which it will sell quickly, but it's actually not the case at all in a lot of regional areas. And so there's just not as many buyers around full stop, but everyone has that expectation that it will take a lot longer just to find that buyer, you know, we bought a property in long system for, for Mary and Jason back in, Oh God, I think it was the first series. It was the first year is relocation. And you know, their property had set on the market for three years. You think, God, I might've fancy having a, your whole life on hold that long because you can't move on. So, and that is a reality that, that, that can happen again. There's no doubt about that.

Chris Bates: He's a great tip. I think anyone who's thinking about buying regionally one of the first things, you know, don't get too excited because you're very early in your journey. And then looking at the properties you do, like seeing what, staying on the market and how long it's been on the market. And, you know, you can very easily find out also the price sales, how long it took to sell. And it took 120 days, the last three times it sold like it's a property that's always going to potentially take a long time to find a buyer. And so you can easily find these things out. And when you are looking at new areas, what's selling fast, what's not selling fast.

Kirsten Craze: Yeah. I'm perhaps look back further than just the last year or so, because I think it's flurry of activity is pretty abnormal. So you need to see an end if you are I'm I'm not an economist. I'm not saying people are buying at the height of the market at the moment, but we can definitely say it's on an up upwards chick. And so you can't be guaranteed that if, if you do decide to, I think they're called re changes. Now, people that are going back to the city if you become a re changer in a shorter period of time that you might, it might take longer than it. It's not a quick fix is what I'm saying. No, no, that's, I didn't know. There was a term for that, but that's fantastic. So I was calling you, you Turner you're rechange rechange. I've read recently. I wish I I'd like to say I invented it, but I did read it. So

Veronica Morgan: If you've got a property Dumbo for us, Kirsten,

Kirsten Craze: Ah well, yeah, I think we've probably talked about a few Dumbo. Yeah, just there that last one about sort of buying with FOMO in your heart and then realizing that it's you know, you can't sell it, but I did come across a family who had moved to Western new South Wales, let's say and they had been living in the inner West of Sydney and just could not afford to buy the two small children. And they just wanted a home for their kids and they wanted an affordable home. And so started. I think they worked out how much they could buy for, and then looking in that price bracket and sort of, I think that price and affordability was driving their choices more than the location and found somewhere bought. And then it all started to fall apart. The kids weren't happy there.

Kirsten Craze: The one of the parents in particular just felt didn't feel whether it was welcome or couldn't find their tribe. And it just all started to become uncomfortable and regretful. But they, they at least hadn't sold out of Sydney, but they had, they let affordability be the, the sole driver. And I think that's what could risk happening to a lot of people at the moment, especially as city prices escalate the way they are. If people jump ship quickly thinking I can have a house and a pool and have this and have that and not do their homework around, will I like it will. My kids like it, my future kids, like it is this a long-term strategy or otherwise if it's just affordability, buy an investment and stay where you are and rent in the city, if that's where you feel at home

Chris Bates: Kirsten. Cause I think we're getting a lots of clients at the moment. Instead of last couple of weeks, we've had clients to a very frustrated on the home buying journeys can see the market's moving on them and the brain's freaking out and they're saying, look well, I'm just going to go and buy an investment. And or they're willing to make a short-term lifestyle change to ultimately get what they want longer term from a lifestyle point of view. And I've sort of had to had some challenging calls, I guess, confronting a little bit for them and sort of there's a lot of people have the belief is that, you know, the market that they want gone up and they'll be able to afford it one day. If they go and put their money elsewhere and you know, so they'll go and buy an investment property and that will miraculously go up, you know, for your 50% and then after costs and stamp duty, then that'll give them the money to go and buy into the market.

Chris Bates: Yeah, exactly. And capital gains tax will then be able to go back into the market that they want and we're happy or they'll rent where they are. And then ultimately they're able to buy where they want in five years time. And it's, you know, it's a great to think like that, but I guess it's how in reality you actually gonna make that happen. And I think the renting thing is great short term, but you've got to really be setting yourself up renting longterm and really be thinking through, you know, how's that going to work with schooling and how's that going to work with, you know, different types of houses that you need, if you need bigger, you know, bigger space as you get older and things like that. And yeah, I think people sometimes make that, you know, that shift, they say, well, I can't buy what I want. So I'm just going to go and buy an investment. Then they don't really think through what's the longer term impact of that decision. And, you know, what's the longer term strategy rather than let's just buy something. Just so we've got some,

Veronica Morgan: This sounds like our bootcamp, we're sort of doing it in reverse, but you know, this is very true because there is so much pressure on, On buyers at the moment. And, and there is that FOMO that says, well, if I can't afford the place I want to live in, I should buy an investment in order to get into the market. And that is a very valid plan B that I do discuss with our clients. So forget whether you're looking regionally or otherwise. You know, this to say, look, you know, ultimately there has to come a point where you draw a line in the sand and say, right, it's not going to happen for us. We're not going to be able to afford to get what we want, where we want it. And within the budget that we've got and you have to then decide to move location, you know, really drastically adjust your expectations on the property itself or plan B is the investment route. And what I often do is have a conversation with a client and say, right, there has to be a deadline for this because the longer you take the less chance you're going to get to buy anything of quality.

Veronica Morgan: And so there's a point at which we say, right, you know, we now know it's it's the, the window was shot. The doors closed. Horse's bolted how we in many ways want to say it. You know, now we know that now it comes to hard decision you need to make quickly but has gotten him through that. But it is, it's a tough market out there. There's no doubt about it. And clearly in regional Australia is tough too. So you're not, no one's escaping it the first time. Really? That, that they've both been tough at the same time, right? Yeah, absolutely. And, and so therefore that danger and your Dumbo, as I said, leads as beautifully into our bootcamp, which is that, that affordability chasing affordability on its own without considering everything else is super dangerous.

Chris Bates: And sometimes you ride the, the compromise rather than location should be the compromise on the type of property you're going for. You know, you know, rather than sort of compromising potentially twice, maybe having a nice house, but it's no location you really want to be. And then having to come back and then compromising anyway for the property that you ultimately to get back into something a bit cheaper in the area you want it to be maybe a better off, not just making that big lifestyle change, keeping everything else, the same friends, family networks, you know, work, all those sorts of things. And maybe it's, you know, buying a really nice apartment to live in or a town.

Kirsten Craze: The kids don't mind if they don't have a backyard, maybe you can be located next to a great park or an aquatic center or something

Chris Bates: Reframing, just reframing that. And, you know, refraining, renting, you know, if you are making that decision of investing the money long-term and not, and going to rent, then reframing, renting is not a bad thing. You know, it's, you know, don't have to worry about maintenance and yes, you're going to, but you say to yourself, we are going to potentially have to move more and that's okay. We're just going to have to deal with these lifestyle changes and be positive around it. So it's whatever you do, it's just sort of really going making the right compromise rather than yeah. All of a sudden make this lifestyle change and you just knew in your heart, I think the guts, there's lots of studies that show the guts usually always. Right. So yeah, really listened to that.

Veronica Morgan: Well, Kirsten, you so much for joining us. I love list of pros and cons and it's, you know, I will read more on, on your interviews on this topic and hopefully there's more of more to readers. So we're going to put that link to your regret article, which I think is really important for people just to understand and take off their Rose colored glasses. You know, that the regional move might work for them, but they do have to understand all these things. And I think this has been a great chat. Thank you for having me. Awesome. Thanks so much, Kristen. Thank you.