Episode 186 | Online Auctions | Jesse Davidson, AuctionWorks

How have online auctions changed how vendors sell and buyers purchase?
How do online auctions work and will they last? In this episode we discuss how properties are selling during the most recent lockdown. Today we have Jesse Davidson, the chief auctioneer and director at AuctionWorks. Just as home buyers and sellers have had to conform to the new normal, industry professionals adapt to restrictions and their customer’s needs.

The recent lockdown restrictions have brought back the not so distant memory of 2020, the difference this time is the resilience of buyers in the property market. Digital auction houses have normalised the online auctioning of goods, ranging from a stick of gum to wholesale commercial products, but will property fall into this order or stand out amongst all other purchasable assets?

GUEST LINKS:
https://www.auctionworks.net.au/

HOST LINKS:
Looking for a Sydney Buyers Agent? www.gooddeeds.com.au
Work with Veronica: https://linktr.ee/veronicamorgan

Looking for a Mortgage Broker? www.wealthful.com.au
Work with Chris: hello@wealthful.com.au

Send in your questions to: questions@theelephantintheroom.com.au

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Please note that this has been transcribed by half-human-half-robot, so brace yourself for typos and the odd bit of weirdness…
This episode was recorded in July 2021.

Veronica Morgan: In this episode, we're talking about online auctions, how they differ from those held on site and the things both bidders and sellers need to know.

Veronica Morgan: Welcome to the elephant in the room. This is the podcast where we love to talk about the big things in property that never usually get talked about. I'm Veronica Morgan, real estate agent buyer's agent co-host of Foxtel's location, location, location, Australia, and author of auction ready.

Chris Bates: And I'm Chris Bates mortgage broker. Before we get started, I need to let you know that nothing we say on here can be taken as personal advice. We always recommend you engage the services of a professional.

Veronica Morgan: Don't forget that you can access the transcript for this episode on the website, as well as download our free full forecast report, which experts can you trust to get it right? The elephant in the room.com did I use

Veronica Morgan: In the early days of COVID-19 lockdowns vendors and agents withdrew properties from auction on mess, there was little confidence in online auctions as a method of sale. And as soon as restrictions were lifted, those that did continue with the online models, which Stripe back to onsite auctions. This time around agents report that online auctions are delivering huge results with one reported record 62 registered bidders last weekend, but the rules are different with online auctions. Technology plays a part, and it's nowhere near as transparent as when you can attend an auction in person. Do buyers know what they're in for? Or are they treating it like an eBay auction to answer these questions and more we're joined today by auctioneer Jesse Davidson. Jesse is a chief auctioneer and director at auction works and has been conducting both in rooms and onsite auctions for both residential and commercial properties for over 10 years and online as well now. Welcome Jesse.

Chris Bates: Hello. How are you? Thank you so much, Jesse. I mean, it's an interesting time in lots of fields, but I mean, not being able to do say onsite or in-person auctions, how they mine auctions going and how are you finding that sort of transition to becoming a bigger part of the market?

Jesse Davidson: Yeah. Look, it's been an interesting transition. I think the first thing to know is that comparing to last year when we had our first major lockdown in, I think it was March 27, we had a very, very different discussion to have with a lot of our agents. There was not a lot of uptight to your online process, but most importantly, vendors were taking to the process this time around. It's been very, very different. We've had agents engaging with us rather than us having to sort of go after them. And also owners that seem to be happy with the process being as though that we've had, you know, a good amount of success throughout the last 12 months of utilizing the programs.

Jesse Davidson: And I think that's one really important thing to note is that we're sort of getting back to our model auctions. Now the reality is for a lot of the auctioneer's we've actually been running them now for, for 12 months. Never really turned off if that makes sense. Yes, we were excited to get back on site, but from an online process, certainly been running it consistently. So to answer your question about success, our clearance rates gone up, but the level of stock has actually gone down by 40%. So we can't read too much into that data, but registered bidders has gone from 5.3 up to nine points right now. I understand you can't have person, but you know what I mean? So that has made a substantial change for us in that we're operating with a lot more interested parties. So that's been a couple of interesting things to take out of this lockdown compared to the law.

Veronica Morgan: And part of that could be obviously there's less listings, so therefore you've got more, you know, more buyers as a function of less listings to, to compete for. But can you just explain for us, because obviously you use a platform called auction live. Can you just explain for us firstly, how that works, how it differs from an onsite auction for bidders in particular? So this is a multifaceted question here. We'll go back I'll I'll remind you of what my first question was. I said, and I know that there's sort of really three main types of online auctions as they're being utilized at the moment. So let's, first of all, let's look at the method that you use auction live. How does that work

Jesse Davidson: Effectively? What happens is the property is uploaded onto the auctions live system. It then creates what's called a preregistration link that pre-registration link is then sent out to all interested parties. And that is their opportunity to then obviously pre-register for the property. So they put in all of their registration details that they intend to put on that contract. They put in their solicitor's details. If they're bidding on behalf of a company from a buyer's agent's perspective, they'll put in their authority form if necessary there effectively. What happens from that point is the system just then holds that, that list of people in a effectively, a holding paddock. And then the agent's job is to come in and say, okay, I now qualify that this party is actually a legitimate buyer and this is a massive step to the system that I think buyers need to understand as well from transparency is that it's not like anybody can jump on these systems and register the agent has the ability to then say, okay, John Smith, I have no idea who this party is. I'm going to call them not to say that they can't be, but I'm going to call them and qualify them because they're not going to be to my auction, unless I know who they are particularly online, where we don't have that attachment, where we can see the purchases

Veronica Morgan: Just to step in for a sec. So obviously the risk, you know, part of me thinks, oh, an agent wants as many bitters as possible, but the other half of me says, but say that unknown quantity ends up being the highest bidder. How do they actually make sure that they do fundamentally pay the deposit and sign the contract? So is that the risk? Yeah,

Jesse Davidson: It's a really good point. I think we've got to assume that that a huge and a vast, vast, vast majority of agents of course are good people, but most importantly, they want a deal too. So a flight buyer to them is never as good as a, as a, I mean, let's be honest that the change in buyer's agencies or the way that buyers agents are looked at upon the, in the market at the moment is astounding. People love buyer's agents. And so they well should cause they're putting people in front of you who are ready to act because the buyer's agent doesn't make a commission unless they make a purchase. And the owner is the same way. So I do believe that we need to rely on the fact that a lot of our agents good people, but they also want the sale to happen.

Jesse Davidson: And because of that, that will only allow good quality purchases to actually participate in the auction. So once the preregistered bidder is approved, they then complete their registration. The buyer has two options. They either then beads will effectively have three options. They either then choose to bid on the online app where they can download an app on their phone, watch the live stream at the time of the auction and bid through the app. So that's option one, option two is to just jump on their laptop and do it the same way. So they don't have to do it through an app. If you, if you're a little less tech savvy and options raised the option, which I call my dad's option. And I'm glad that he doesn't listen to podcasts. But the reality is if you asked my dad to bid on an app for property, he would pretty much say my are not interested.

Jesse Davidson: So what we're trying to do now is for my dad, I try and have an option where we say, okay, we can incorporate telephone video. And with the telephone bidder slight, the old way, we're on the telephone, but to make sure they're engaged, we still send them the lodge stream link so that they can watch it on their laptop and still be engaged. But they're on the telephone where they feel a lot more comfortable. So once the once the purchase has taken place, so a bit of number five buys the property. There is a multitude of options. I, as the auctioneer can sign on behalf of the vendors, I'm trying to take a role. And I think it's important for buyer's agents to understand this as well, is that I'm trying to move away from signing for buyers at the moment. I'm less really necessary on online auctions.

Jesse Davidson: I'm okay with live auctions. And the single reason for that is, is I think when a purchase is buying online, we need to ensure that they, they know what they've done. That's why they systems are great. They time and date stamp every year. We want to know that they know the bid that they've made. We also want them to sign the contract, which shows good quality intent. And then we want them to pay the deposit. They're the three major things that block down a sale. And that's what an owner wants. And of course from an auctioneer and agent's point of view, we operate, ensure that the owner gets a safe transaction.

Chris Bates: Are you finding though that any apprehensive still from vendors who are saying right? I can't do in-person right. I'm just going to wait for this lockdown to finish. Is that it? Or is that what you were saying a lot last year, but not as much this year? I mean, absolutely. Yeah. Cause it's sort of tempting, right? If you've got a place that you're pretty confident it's going to present really well, it's going to be a nice, beautiful sunset. You got to get everyone out on your deck, around your pool, over a free bottle of champagne and blah, blah, blah. Like, do you still feel that people are so attached to that idea of selling that I've got to sell this far in half, but on telephone, it's not going to get that same result.

Jesse Davidson: I think the important thing to know probably now in this market is that there is an element of people that need to transact. So it is not for everybody. And I think that's, that's a really important point. Is that not everybody is going to engage with the online process and to answer your first question. Absolutely. you know, 40% of our agents and vendors decided that this wasn't for them, they wanted to park the asset.

Jesse Davidson: They're in no great rush. So they want to push it back to an online auction, oh, sorry. Onsite auction, where they feel that they'll have the most amount of success. And that, you know, from my point of view, I support whatever my vendors want to do if that's what they think is in their best interests. Okay. But what online auctions are doing really well is that for the people that need to transact or still want to transact with agents that, you know, I looked at one the other day where I had 17 registered bidders. I mean, this idea was being knocked over in the rush. And he said, mate, we have no other option because I'm getting offers left right. And center. And if I don't get it on an online auction, I'm going to look like a bad agent by people thinking I've dumped them or whatever it may be. So a lot of them were getting hammered. Let's go to the online process,

Veronica Morgan: Less stock on the market. I'm seeing some Roy [inaudible] prices being paid for property right at the minute. It just panic. It's like toilet paper, seriously buyers. There will be more stock coming on the market. Guys, there'll be more toilet paper on the shells. You don't have to go crazy and pay ridiculous price for the slim pickings. There are at the minute as an auctioneer. I mean, one of the things that, you know, I guess onsite the auction is charisma and how you hold the room and how you generate fear of missing out or your work, all those wonderful human emotions that we talk about here. And the elephant in the room is that diminished in some way, when you take it offline or take it online, I should say, when you actually put a screen in between you and the buyers,

Jesse Davidson: Short answer is yes, it is diminished slightly. But what I've noticed, at least in my personal calls and, and within my team is that the more that I'm doing, the better I'm getting, and I think the better you get at it. So I'm learning how to utilize the systems, sort of technology advances, you know, call signs going once going twice, third time, a lot more. I'm also trying to have a lot more in-depth conversations with my agents, for them to prepare their buyers too often, agents sort of just assume that on our onsite auction buyers know what they're doing. Now, the answer to that is they certainly don't. And now that we're on, they know even less. So what agents need to do is hold people's hand being a buyer's agent, or be a first time buyer or a downsizer or, or anybody who's wanting to engage in the process is sit down with them and talk them through it, show them some success online.

Jesse Davidson: The process works. Otherwise people just won't engage because it scares them. And I understand that, but I mean, if you asked somebody 15, 20 years ago, if they would have bought a camera online, they would say, absolutely not. But you know, that's pretty much how you buy them. Property is changing slightly. I don't think we're ever going to go to a full online process, not for a while yet. I think the theater of an auction, and I think people love to engage with it. And I must admit, I can't wait to get back to normal, but for the time being, I'm getting the hang of it and I'm getting better. So yes, we lose a little bit of our, as I suppose, by better and more we do, I suppose we can try and earn a bit of that back. You've got lots of tricks in your toolkit that, you know, you have to use at different times for different people at different things.

Chris Bates: Is there any in the online auction where you're like, wow, that's actually something that's another advantage for you as an auctioneer, trying to get the best price for your vendor that I wasn't expecting. That's a surprise or some strategy I can use that I can now do online that I can't do in person.

Jesse Davidson: Yeah. Staying firm on my increments has worked really, really well for me. Couple of auctions and one of my auctioneer's, or I actually think is one of the best auctioneers in the state, Jake downs in an auction the other day and online. And he did an incredible job, but he took 256 beads on and his fault. He did an amazing job. The agent was over the moon and the vendor was obviously happy to keep going for another hour. But at the end of the day, he took a thousand dollars above the reserve price and quite well above the reserve price to be fair.

Jesse Davidson: So he did the right thing. But what I've tried to do a little bit more is have more high level discussions with my agents about if I feel that this auction is performing or still has good quality legs in it, give me the ability to knock back smaller increments because I believe it's in your vendor was best interests. And obviously that's, I've got to operate under my vendor vendors best interests. And it's, you know, if, if you know, we do have to, to a certain degree, we are paid for the experience that we have and in these sort of positions to understand when somebody's potentially going to go a little further and those that want now we're not always right. And which always gives you the ability to go back and say, sir, I will take that thousand dollar bet if, if that bigger chunk didn't work. But yeah, that's probably the one thing that I've noticed that I've gotten better at and also probably utilizing call signs, seem to work really well on online the first, second, third as well.

Chris Bates: No, the legs in the market, as you know, in terms of your bidders, you're looking at all these faces on the screens. Can you sense that legs anywhere near as much as well then if it's in-person.

Jesse Davidson: No, not as well, but a lot of it, as I say is around discussions with the agent. So having discussions with the agent, a lot of my discussions is, okay, bidder number three is Joe Thompson. Tell me about Joe, what does he do? Okay. We'll make Joe made an offer of 1.4. I reckon he's our probably best buyer. So I start to, as I'm, as I'm running the auction, if, if bitters numbers three, seven and eight are all running the auction and I haven't seen bidder number four, I then suddenly go, you know, because in the back of my head, I've got all my notes here that he's one of the better buyers, better.

Jesse Davidson: Number four, where are you at this sort of level? Now I can never say their name and engage with them at that sort of level. So there's those sorts of tools as well that we can use, but it's all around discussion. I just did a training session this morning with bill property Kilkenny up in, up in the central coast. And one of the things I said to them is that all the work that you would have done at the auction do it prior and discuss that with me, tell me everything I need to know. This is not like where I turn up on Saturday and just sort of play it as I see it. I need to be much, much more prepared in my, in my sort of game

Veronica Morgan: Plan. So fascinating. And I love it that you're sharing these insights, Jesse, because one of my questions actually is can you choose your increments? But before I get to you as a buyer, that is what you just given us as some insight into, you know, how an experienced auctioneer will look to cues and then do certain things accordingly. And what I always say to my clients is that I'm looking to the auctioneer for clues as to how many other bidders are in it, how strong other bidders are, because, you know, the has got all the information that we don't have. And, and I know they've the vendor bids high for argument's sake. There's that, that gives various clues if it's low there's other clues. And then the increments that's being called for also gives clues. So you're even saying that even over reserve, a strong increment is really because you think someone who hasn't yet country or participated and should be participating in that price is there.

Veronica Morgan: And you're also not want to give away signs that everyone, you know, you're at the, at the end of it. Right? So I think that's really fascinating. And also the very fact that you're given that in new south Wales, obviously you have to register in, in Victoria, you don't. So therefore in new south Wales, you as an auctioneer has given a quality of information that you can work through that auction with. I know I go to auctions and watch people register because I want to pick up things as well. I can't do that now at an online auction. So that's something in my toolkit that I no longer have as a better though. One of the things I like to do is mess with the increments. I don't want you controlling things as you know, if I can in some small way, because I realize it's a sellers market, but where's the flexibility for a buyer to change things up a bit during an auction, or isn't there,

Jesse Davidson: Listen, there's certainly less opportunities to do it. Particularly with our option of auctions live, there is no back and forth like a zoom. So where I've had a few engagements, zoom that had been a bit awkward and you get the guy that turns up and he's undies and the other board Jolie sorts of things, there is no ability for back and forth, sort of, you know, abuse and all these other things that we sort of cop on sites. But in terms of increments, which is a wonderful question, you still got the ability to do funny increments, do all sorts of things. There is no necessary, I suppose, ability to pull it back to ones when the auction is moving in twenties, you know, the simple press of a button I reject the bid, but the same way I would on Saturday, a lot of auction is I think I've tried to train my team to do really well is when you're online and you're getting these beads to not reject a bead and beat your chest, like an eight block where the boss, you know, a lot of the time, if, if somebody puts a $1,000 bet and I say, bidder, number seven, thank you so much for the offer.

Jesse Davidson: It's a little early for a single, I'm going to have to reject that buys. We advances intense for the moment. And suddenly, you know, a lot of these buyers that happened to me last night, it happened to me on, on Monday night as well. A lot of these buyers then say, okay, I think he's fair. He's probably right. And they aren't coming back with a 10. Now I might only get three or four more tens until we get it back up into the realms of reality from there I'll happily work with you. But a lot of the time, the advice from a biased point of view is this, the single thousand dollar rise is actually not always a great option. A lot of the time it keeps people in the fight totally. And people have this idea. And it's always the one in both of you would have heard this a million times. There's always that uncle, you know, that, that board and auction in 1987, and he asked him auctioneer, if he was on the market and then the market bought it, you know, this story is just repeated, blah, blah, blah. All the time leads beating is you've got to have a good quality strong meeting strategy and, and nine times out of 10, and this is nine times out of 10. Your strategy will play very importantly to you, but nine times out of 10, the person with the most amount of money buys it that's most

Veronica Morgan: People don't have a strategy though. You know,

Chris Bates: Is there an online strategy though that you've picked up over the last say, I don't know, 12 months or 18 months where everything you've really been starting to get a real flow on this, where you're saying someone playing the online game better than, you know, let's say it's this smaller and versus the bigger ones, but is there something in the online space where you think just gotta, it really scares the other buyers? I mean, that's ultimately what our agents are doing, but is there something that you're finding in the online space where that's happening?

Jesse Davidson: Absolutely. Two things. The first thing that I saw in terms of strategies is people who are good on tech scare people who aren't good on tech. So what I've noticed really is even if the increments are moving in fives, when we might 45 seconds, a bit of number seven to make a five lead back in 10 seconds, that guy goes, Jesus, wow, goodness. And then they go either the person on the end of this knows exactly what they're doing, or they're not going to lose it. So that's the same strategy. I tell people on a Saturday and also the strategy that I gave, one of my best friends who, who bought from falling off on of our auction is Lorenzo jaunty. On Saturday night, I talked to him about, and I say this to every buyer. I always ask them the question. At what level are you happy to buy this property? And I always ask them a question, and if they're guiding $2.2 million, what are you happy to pay? And a lot of the time they'll say, it'll come look re realistically, I'll pay two for 20. And you say, okay. So if I asked you if you would, why'd it 2 million, 200,000, would you be over the moon? And the answer again, it's rhetorical.

Jesse Davidson: Yes, I'd be absolutely over the moon. Then make an opening bid of 2.2. There's no need to come in at two, you know, it's going to get there and you've already just told me that you've done your due diligence and you know, it's great value at two to get rid of the two, one and the 2, 1 50 buyers early. So they're the two strategies I've seen a good quality start and also online, if you can feed back nice and quickly, and there's only one way to get good at online tech, unfortunately, and that's the bit on property, which is an expensive habit

Veronica Morgan: Very much. So I've played with when I say play, we, we bought some art online in the auctions and I just thought I wanted to play around with it. And I figured it's sort of a lower risk and, and one of the auctions. Okay. So they do this thing way. It gets the higher bidder and it looks like it's over the reserve is going to sell and then there's a timer. And so it says for 10 minutes. And so then you've got all the underbidder sitting there going, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh, okay. What about one more, all that sort of stuff. And you can actually, pre-load your limit in there so that the minute somebody else beads your bed, trumps them, and then it's recess for 10 minutes and it's like agonizing. So if you agonize and then try to make it at the end of the 10 minutes, I think it's worse than actually pre-loading it with your own buyers reserve so that it just bang hits it. And then, so that was my technique that I developed the buying art and I think it worked right. But then again, you never know if it works because there's no parallel universe

Jesse Davidson: And that, that's the, that's the thing about auctions and people saying I would've sold it for a little bit more. You never know, and you will never know. It's just one of those issues. And yeah, it's a funny process, but it's, it's, it's making it more, I suppose, a little bit more difficult for people at the moment. But the other thing, as I said, people are getting used to it, which is, which is fantastic,

Veronica Morgan: But there's also zoom auctions. Yes. So have you seen any of those in action?

Jesse Davidson: Yeah. No done it done a fair few and seen in action. The one thing I'd say about all of these systems, and I think I've got to be quite fair and reasonable when I, when I talk about them is that I think they've all got separate benefits. You know, I think auctions live has got things that I love. So for example, I think their quality of stream is the best on the market. I think some of the innovations in auction now are probably advanced, but I also love the back and forth integration of a, a zoom call or a Google Hangouts. I don't mind being able to see people again, particularly what I've been staring down the lens of a camera for the last three months. So it's not bad. I don't mind them that there's a few things that have popped up in the last three or four weeks, which I believe the OFD are looking into with zoom in relation to us, jumping on zoom and our names popping up the top.

Jesse Davidson: Oh yeah. We're not allowed to declare the names of other buyers. Now. I understand we're not declaring it, but we're also creating an environment where they are declaring them. So I'll just think we just need to be really careful and clever. And for anyone that you're representing, you know, it doesn't hurt to say buyer and whatever you bid as number is seven. Just, you can change your name at the start of the engagement. Again, I don't think anyone's, head's going to roll for it. I just think it's something that we need to be aware of. And I know this personally because my wife and I did on a zoom property late last year, we missed it before we bought our one off in other lawn now. And I remember Facebooking one of the people in the group, you know, and that's shocking. I'm sorry. It would get that. It's true. So that's not good. And we can't have doing that and we need to still ensure that we're providing privacy. So we've lent the other way because we feel it's just a little more above board. If that makes sense. There's also

Veronica Morgan: Glitches. If somebody is internet sort of staggers or they freeze, you know, like, I mean, I guess there's terrible timing or luck a depending on how you look at it, how do you sort of work around those issues when you're live streaming?

Jesse Davidson: Don't panic. That, that, that is the first thing is not to panic is have you attained, prepped for exactly this, but also have your buyers prep for it. A lot of the discussions around online auctions need to be had with your buyers early. So it's a matter of saying Mr and Mrs. Jones in the event that your stream does drop out, or you have an issue with your stream. This is the emergency number that I want you to call now. I don't think it hurts for agents to be super safe now and have a telephone authority filled in for every buyer, just in case. So just an extra little authority to say that should your internet dropout, we can pick up the phone and take your bids over the telephone. Took a bit stressful. Yeah, no, exactly right. It is a stressful time, but you know, the auctioneer is always going to normally know what's going on.

Jesse Davidson: So they'll pull it up from there. So normally it won't continue to proceed. It'll just hold up, stay calm. And also, you know, engaging with your buyers prior to the day to make sure they know how it works. One of the big questions I'm telling my agents to ask their advisors, guys, you know that there's an online auction coming in three weeks. Let's start the dialogue now. And I want you to ask these buyers, guys, if you intend to bid on this auction at 11:00 AM on Saturday to so-and-so, where will you be watching the auction online? And if so, could you do me a favor and just do a quick site recky to make sure that you've got great internet. If

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Veronica Morgan: How long do they go?

Jesse Davidson: How long did they go for how long is a piece of string? To be honest,

Veronica Morgan: I go longer than, than a typical onsite auction where you don't have to jump in your car and race off to the next

Jesse Davidson: One. Yeah. So they are, they the average auction you used to go from anywhere from sort of nine to 15 minutes. These are probably going for about eight to 25 minutes. We've had ones go over an hour, so they do take a lot longer, but that's, that's by hesitancy, I think as well. So the more I'm doing a guy in the faster they're going, and I think it's got something to do with my control of it too. And I'm not trying to peddle in my pocket. It's just a fact that the more you do of anything, the better you get at it. And I think that's happening.

Chris Bates: Anyone go down the sort of like the true a basis star where, you know, I'm not sure if it's happening or not, but where there's no auctioneer animals is a good idea, or you should not have a joke where literally, as soon as the property sort of list, there might not even be an Australia where it's like, you put your register, your bid, and then the maximum bid by, you know, the 31st of August is when there's the price, we'll take like a real like eBay sort of auction. And he's saying that in the residential space, I'm not, I, I think it's in the commercial space.

Jesse Davidson: Yeah. Well, I can, I can actually talk at quite length to this. So my mentor, who I ended up buying the business off in 2018, still works for us. David Scholes. He has pretty much had and had to this system probably before anyone did about 13, 14 years ago is running with the business. Now the answer is yes, it exists. And David probably won't love me saying this. I don't think it works nearly as well as what we do. But in saying that he's had great success on certain products, he has a lot of success on regional assets. A lot of regional buyers are used to systems like auction plus where you buy, you know, 150 steers or heifers through an online process. And the idea of auction sparse, just to give you some relevance here is that the farmer doesn't have to go into the stock yards to do it.

Jesse Davidson: They see the photos directly from farmers and farmer B buys it straight off the farm, and then they pick them up and take them. So they're, they're all used to this. A lot of the regional buyers, the answer is it is done. It's just not done in a massive scale that system's called well, it was called auction works online, but he's just rebranded it to solve online. So there is systems out there he's doing a few, but it's, I wouldn't say he's being knocked over in the rush with it. It's got its benefits for certain different people, but you bid over days, not minutes. And there's normally a closed down time of say two o'clock on a Friday. And should it be, be made in the last minutes? It just pushes it out another five minutes, pushing the reset. There's no incentive really to make your bed right, because I don't actually, yeah, that's what I found as well, is that a lot of buyers sort of left their last name, their best speeds to last am.

Jesse Davidson: I sort of looked at the process of a five day auction and thought about that. But what we did really well is you also got the integration of a starting bid that wasn't a vendor B so effectively saying that if we're guarding 1.5 hate type, put a starting bid in the system of one three, which means that any bit above that is considered effectively, that's not a vendor will be, but it gets the process starting. And it gives people five days to say, well, geez, 1.3. I thought that was going to go for a bit more. This is value. I might do some more DD on that. All psychology, isn't it? Yeah. All psychology. Exactly. Right. So you saying

Veronica Morgan: That actually that actually gives them time to do their due diligence. So that's interesting. So they haven't actually really decided they're going to buy it at the point where the auction process starts. Hopefully

Jesse Davidson: They have, but the ones on the fence a little bit more time. So, you know, once a genuine fear is put on the floor of any negotiation, I think it allows both parties to say, okay, now we can really start to assess the situation and work out how we proceed. And when you're starting call is, is value at one three, you know, in a one five scenario buyers, then start to, you know, dare I say it a little bit of greed kicks in for all of us, right? We all say, oh Jesus, one, three. I reckon I could stack these up. And that's one of the big things we noticed as well. So this works, I just don't engage with an enormous amount. Now. I don't want to put myself out of a job yet, but there's a future for it, unfortunately for David. And I think he'll be the first to admit this as well. He was just so far ahead of his time. You know, this tech 10 years ago, very scary to a lot of people.

Veronica Morgan: He did tell us about it. Actually we interviewed David in the first, I think he was episode eight or something very early on because David was the auctioneer when I was a selling agent. And in fact, the first time I heard you, Jesse, I actually thought was David with a cold. I was like, David skulls, his back. It was like, oh my God, that person sounds like

Jesse Davidson: Very close.

Veronica Morgan: But so in the online sort of, it's more, I guess, a hybrid in a way that you're, you're there as an auctioneer, but you've got people with apps or using software and beating with a button to push of a button, unless they're the dad version when they're on the phone. So what are you doing? You've got a screen in front of you and you're, you're just basically putting on a performance,

Jesse Davidson: Running off an iPad pretty much. So I set up iPod with a large stream on it. I run off an iPad where all of my preregistered buyers are in that system. If you're pre-registered, all I have to do is click accept or decline your beat. If you are over the telephone, I have to input that bid manually. So let's say it's a 10,000 over the bid. I will then add 10 and breastfeed. It's always a little bit easier to be honest, it's one less button just to accept it. So that's why we love the online ones, but again, we don't want to exclude people. I, and I said this to the agents I trained this morning. The biggest thing owners want to know at the moment is that we can still get them a premium price for their asset. That's what they want to know. And I truly believe that with the, you know, with the examples we've had in the last three weeks, the answer is absolutely we can, we can still do it for you. It's not quite going to be the way you used to, but we can still get you your premium. And that's what owners me, but you are very

Veronica Morgan: Much helped by the market though, aren't you? Because let's face it. It's hot market options had just bumped back into Sydney anyway, just bumped back over 80% clearance rate the week before locked down, you know, is it, is it sort of a function of market conditions that allows it to be so successful?

Jesse Davidson: I think that'd be a fair comment. Yeah, I really do. I think that'd be a fair comment. I, you know, if our market conditions where we're, you know, 2009, 2010, then yeah, probably not, but where we're at at the moment, I think has helped. And I look, I also think that the pandemic has, has sort of recreated that Australian dream again, of owning property. You know, people have been scared out of their units and, and these sorts of things and want a bit more space. And I think that's driving it as well with there's a bunch of factors, obviously interest rates at the moment are higher in the way people are behaving and why they're making decisions. And they're the major things that I think are also driving people's desire to want to upsize. And that's what we're seeing right across the countries is a pretty much genuine desire to upsize.

Chris Bates: So on the buyer on the sort of, you've gotten potentially the tricks that have benefit on online auctions, is there any other sort of tricks that you ought to use in person that you're like, I, in this situation I really want to go in and pretend on ads, speak to the vendor, or, you know, all these tricks that you'll use that, you know, we know you're going in there for just for a cup of tea or a biscuit, but is there something that you use on auction day where you're like, I cannot do this in online auctions and I really want to use that card right now, but I just, can't a faster negotiation with the highest bidder, right?

Jesse Davidson: So our job is to always try and get the most amount of money. One of the big things I try my agents on when you're running a standard auction campaign is just because we've exceeded the owner's reserve doesn't mean that we shouldn't try and get more money now, buyers, agents, and buyers don't want to hear that. But at the end, we make no apologies for who, who I operate.

Jesse Davidson: So at the end of the day, you will find weaker. Agents will be happy to accept an offer. And I see that I see it all the time. And you'll also see agents that say much the same, as I said to you before, about my feeling on where an auction is going to go. So, you know what? I think this, buyer's got a little bit more money and I always talk about, and I call it the RSL test, right? Where once an owner's sold, like go down and have it be with all their friends and they talk about the scenario, right? Or yes. And they sit there and they talk about how their auction went. There's two where they say, well, you know what? We had a reserve of 1 million, $250,000. We got 1, 2 20 and we were pretty happy. But in the same scenario, if the agent goes back in and confirms with the owner, are you happy to type one to 20?

Jesse Davidson: Yes, I am. Okay. Mr. Mrs. Owner, I think there's a little bit more money out there. Give me one moment. If you can go back out, get that offer increased to 1 million, 230,000. So by a single, just a $10,000 bean to the bar, it means quite a bit to the agents commission. It means absolutely zipped to the owner. That's now paid a portion of their styling and a portion of their marketing. And they've just told you that they would have taken less, but you went out and got more. So when the discussion starts to happen at the pub about how you performed as an agent and an auctioneer, these are things that are spoken about in my opinion,

Veronica Morgan: Very true. I think one of the things that we say that to Basel all the time is that, you know, the auctioneer's job and the agent's job is to get the most man up for the vendor. And I'll often find auctions so interesting because I watch, I love watching auctions. I mean, it's just sport for me, but I watched the auction. He worked at, I watched the agent worker, I watched buyers sort of don't know what to do really in many of the cases. So they actually don't know what to do when the agent comes back to them, ask them for more money. And it's like, well, in reality, if was competitive, you don't have to give any more money, you know, just because you've got it doesn't mean you should give it. And yeah, so there's, there's, there's, you know, I think it's a, I don't mind hearing you say that you are actually going for more money. Cause we will know that that's what you're doing. And I think that that's really interesting too, about not all agents or their sort of inexperienced or the less, the less skilled agents that don't know how to go and ask for more money from buyers as well. And I guess that's what you're not getting in an online scenario, right? Is it is, you know, do you do that going inside and talking to the vendor and getting it confirmed on the market is it, is that sort of still happen at some point,

Jesse Davidson: All done over zooms and stuff? The, the increase of the highest speed. So with a reserve of one six, and it gets to one five, and trying to bridge a gap to 1 5 25 or 1 5 50, that process is a lot more clunky. Anybody that tells you otherwise is misleading you, it is much more clunky. That's why I talk to my agents about being super prepared. Have your numbers ready? I will tell you, bidder number six has got the highest speed I will, hopefully by that portion have eight out the last final, probably highest bidder. So most of the time I would have gotten rid of my under bidders and I go, okay, definitely seven appears to me to be the highest bidder. They're the party that we call and try and increase the offer. So to answer your question, yes, much more clunky, but if I had different types of property,

Chris Bates: Though, at a surprising you where you think actually this property is selling better on an online version than onsite, cause sometimes type of properties don't present well at the auction day, maybe they go, God, it's actually a bit smaller than it is. There's five people here trying to bid and kind of a party sort of thing. I mean, is there a certain type of properties where you think online is actually helping them and longer term you would advise them to stay on the online versus going on site?

Jesse Davidson: I'll I'll sort of answer that two ways. One of the things that I would also say is in room, I think online, you sort of operate together and I think there's a lot of stock that suit both processes. So an example would be units. I mean, if you're selling a studio apartment, don't have 50 people in the unit and it's embarrassing and let's be fair. It's going to be at least six to 12 months before we get out of these sort of confined restrictions where numbers matter in rooms. So, you know, we can't be doing that. So I think we need to look at bringing those sorts of a stock that seem to operate pretty well.

Jesse Davidson: And there's one other reason why those sort of studio apartments one bed is two betters operate well. And I think you guys would know it pretty well. It's the demographic of buyers. The style of buy that is sub 40 sub 35, that is completely tech. You know, everything in their life is completely tech dominant and that when they run on tech, their whole lives. So bidding on a, on an app for them is simple. But they're the ones that were saying probably I wouldn't necessarily say they're performing better, but performing better than the other stock. And again, not that this really touches you guys too much, but the commercial stock in particular is performing really well at the moment commercial and the industrial market across Sydney is probably never been better. I don't think

Veronica Morgan: Interesting. You know, when I'm at auctions and I'm watching the other buyers, you know, I mentioned earlier, I get my clues cues from the auctioneer as to what information they're working on. And then I'm looking at positioning myself so I can see what other bidders are doing. And when people go down to the $1,000 bids, there's usually, you know, there's a change in demand or there's often a change in tone. There's often a conversation between a partner. You know what I mean? You can see that they're past whatever, what they wanted to pay. And now they're in the, over the limit sort of territory. And then you've got another buyer doing the same thing against them and they're just going to go. I've seen, I've seen 45 minutes worth of $1,000 beads and that's on site.

Veronica Morgan: So they give away signs. And, and certainly for me as a better, I'm looking for those signs because I want to shut them down. I don't want them thinking that they've got to continue doing $1,000 with me. It's not going to happen. You know, online, I don't have those clues. You obviously don't have those clues either. And those cues, you know, because I know I remember interviewing Damien Cooley and he would talk about where he would lower his voice and he'd really stare right at the person and talk to them and can't do that. You know? So I guess you, you, you then totally reliant then on the information the agent gives you. So if that agent isn't that good and let's face it, not all of them are great. Some are fantastic. But if that agent hasn't given you that quality of information, then you really are a bit hamstrung. You got running blind, right?

Jesse Davidson: Correct. Yeah. Absolutely way more

Veronica Morgan: Than you would be on site because at least on site, you get to make your own, you know, you can, you can read it yourself. So that's quite interesting, but for me is a better, I'm not happy with online at all because I'm blind and I don't want to be blind.

Jesse Davidson: Yeah. And look, I would agree with that. And I think from a, from a, from a buyer's agent's point of view, you know, much like much like me, your ability to utilize your skillset and all the things you've developed over the years is somewhat taken out of your hands. There's absolutely no denying that. Yep. So I think a guy in much like I've had to do, it's a matter of probably engaging in more of them and getting it better from a buyer's point of view without sounding glib there. If you know what I mean? I just think, you know, trying to engage with the process more by, and also utilizing those tactics. I mean, I think you kind of hit the nail on the head with one of your comments in that reading the auctioneer is, is in my opinion, one of the most important things to do on an, on an auction for, as a buyer actually will change and adjust.

Jesse Davidson: And, and speaking of Damien, I mean, I say this quite openly, I think Damien Cooley is one of the best in the country holding high increments teams to be able to do that better than most. And I, I honestly commend him out of, it's amazing to watch a little more forgiving. It might be the country boy in me. I don't know what it is, but we're more forgiving. I'm happy to just play a little bit longer, but it's, it is amazing to watch him do that and our whole, those bigger increments. But again, from a buyer's point of view, just making sure that we get better at it, we practice more out of it and use art, utilizing the ideas of seeing what the auction is doing. And also those, those beading ideas that I gave you before, where you can come back nice and quick with quality.

Jesse Davidson: I think that works particularly one. I saw her on, no, it wasn't this week. It was Friday. Last week, there was a buyer that did once and another bar that kept coming back with nine. And once he did three ones, that was it. Whereas that battle would normally go on for 30 beats. Yeah. That, that to me was a pretty good decision as well. But obviously how many options.

Chris Bates: Do you service? Are you doing a hundred percent online at the moment, right? There's no way to do on site at the marriage. Yes. Do you see it? And propriety is sort of the shutdown. What were you doing online in terms of the percentage?

Jesse Davidson: So all of my rooms around online, everything we do there, I now write the systems, battery, their websites. So my idea is that particularly during this COVID period where we couldn't shove our rooms with heaps of people is to say, guys, that's not, not necessarily a reason not to then engage with all these people. So if somebody come along to your auction and inquired on your property, but he's not going to be bidding on the property, it couldn't hurt to send them an email of the link of the auction. I guys, just so you know, you inquired on this property, the auctions online tonight at five 30, if you've got nothing better to do click on this link and watch us go around and see yours. So that's something as well that I'm, that I'm telling a lot of agents to do,

Chris Bates: Do say that you're going to go shifts straight back on to onsite. And this let's say assuming pandemic and all that sort of stuff. Do you say the online solution really just applying that stop gap or do you ultimately long-term think there's going to be a transition in that direction that yeah. Bit by bit we'll wipe out onsite.

Jesse Davidson: Yeah. Look, the last 12 months is a perfect example that it won't, you know, w where it's going to integrate and it's going to be a wonderful integration tool to what we already have. And what it's going to do is, is not only for our buyers, right, that our interstate or our buyers that are, that are overseas also for our vendor, that's sitting in grace, right? That previously couldn't engage with the auction. They had to be on a telephone. Now they can just click on their link and watch the whole process as it unfolds. And I also think from, you know, when we're, you know, my job is to sell the property for as much money, but it's also to convince an owner to not let us shale fall out of their hands too. So being part of the process and feeling the pain of these smaller beads is really important for us to educate the owners as these, the buyers, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Veronica Morgan: And we, we haven't talked about that so much in the, you say feeling the pain of the smaller beads and the end of the day at agent in an auction, he wants to get a deal together. And, and the owner has to come to the party, don't they and own a greed can get in the way of a good outcome, even for them. And so I guess, yeah. Visibility and being part of that and watching that and understanding that they really have seen that had their day in the sun and tested the market. That's an important part of that process, right? Yeah,

Jesse Davidson: Absolutely. And that's the thing it will integrate. We'll have buyers, you know, over the next 12 months who say, look, I'm just not comfortable coming to your auction at what are my options, so it will continue to integrate, but to go back to your point, it will fade away a little bit, the desire to do it on everything won't be there, but the, the, the desire to continue to do it, I think will remain interesting.

Chris Bates: Are you seeing any change in the appetite to take, would do little mini boardroom offers or best, and last on offers just over the last few weeks where people are like, well, we don't really even want to do an online auction. Let's see if we can get a manufacturer, an offer prior to the auction and just get it done. You know, things that are selling prior to auction more now, because of the fear of the online auction short answer is yes.

Jesse Davidson: And I mean, I'm saying that to a lot of my agents as well, these guys, if you are getting down and you've got one buyer that's really good quality and one flaggy that you're not sure about sell it and they're making offers and they're trying to buy it prior. Don't, don't, you know, it's the same way why I say to people, you know, if, if, if there are the, you know, if an agency utilizes me as their auctioneer and for some reason, a vendor, or has an affiliation with another auctioneer, don't lose the listing over me, get, take it. It'll be fine. So I think from that point of view, you know, we're just trying to ensure that we get, I dunno, a lot of auctions that, that wanna run online online. And for those that want to wait, they'll wait,

Veronica Morgan: Interesting stuff, Jesse, if you got a, a property done by forests?

Jesse Davidson: Yeah, I probably do. I mean, I'll tell you one as recently as last night, and I won't tell you the client or the area, if that's okay. I have a vendor and an agent who had put on their agency agreement 1.75 to 1.85. I believe it was. We ran the auction. We had 17 registered bidders last night. It was a very, very good quality auction. Went really well, got to 1,000,970 or 86 or something like that. Don't hold me to the exact number we trying to get hold of the vendor at that point. And unfortunately the vendor phone was on hold now. I don't know what else a vendor would be doing other than tuning in, but that's okay. We then finally got hold of the fibers. It was about probably nearly 10 minutes later. And she said to us, she said, sorry guys. I was just on the phone to to my best friend. And we said, just filling your property, if we could grab you for a few minutes.

Veronica Morgan: So you're entertaining the crowd for 10 minutes waiting

Jesse Davidson: To get out. Yeah, I don't want that funny. I want to make that work. So I was sitting there and we were chatting away. We finally got a hold of this woman and she said, look, where's the beat. And I said, 1 97. She said, oh, that's not, not quite what she want. She gave us a reserve of two and a half million by high. And unfortunately these things happen. I mean, I've seen properties worth three with a reserve of 10. Sometimes an owner just wants to feel better about themselves. We can't control that, but they certainly indicated to us that they wanted, they wanted to work with us and they certainly wanted to sell the property. So we ended up getting there and I suppose this is the Dumbo portion of it. She then picked up the phone and called this friend back again, who was a friend that had absolutely no experience.

Jesse Davidson: And I was just wondering my properties at 1 9 70. What do you think? And her friend said, oh gee, I thought it would have been worth more than that. Okay. Can you pass it in for us? Thank you. And the agent's sitting there biting his nails, just saying this isn't like, this is an incredible price, 17 registered and look everything's situational. Right? You never know what the, what happens behind the scenes, but it's funny. These things we see from time to time, it's an interesting world, real estate. We get the joys of meeting people from all over the place, but that didn't sell, right? No, it was one for something to want to see. So is that what you said? Sorry. I just want to see, I think it was, yeah, actually I think, and the agents was screaming to sell it and, and you know what, the worst part of these stories is that the only person that looks bad here is the agent.

Chris Bates: And they were certainly given every indication that the property was going to sell certainly in the light box. But these things happen from time to time. I think the owner deserves a fine, to be honest, because the reality is they've got a guide and they've got a 30% above the guide and offers and the owner's not selling it. So they just wasted everybody's time. And there should be some type of obligation on the seller to actually sell. Cause there's lots of obligations on the buyer here, but nothing on the seller to just sort of take that instead of sending out the guy, like there should be some type of limit.

Jesse Davidson: I dunno, that's a really interesting point. And it's not a point that I could disagree with, I suppose the only counter argument. And this is something that we all need to understand is that at the end of the day, it's the owner's property and they have the choice to do whatever they want.

Jesse Davidson: The issue is how that runs over other people in the meantime, because there are, there is collateral damage. There's 17 people that have done pest and buildings are going to solicitors, but what are, what are these proof? I suppose for everybody listening to understand is that the agents, it's not, it's not always them. That has these, that these scenarios, you know, they, they try their hardest, they want to sale as much as you do, but sometimes you just get owners that have different ideas on, on what they want things to pan out to be. So

Veronica Morgan: Being grounded that that's so far off they're stratospheric, and it reminds me of a couple of things come to mind. One is that my understanding is in south Australia and you might not, you might be able to confirm this, Jesse, that the legislation is that the reserve can't be more than 10% over what was quoted. And I think that's really probably the smartest underquoting legislation that I've heard around the country, because that actually brings the vendor into the equation. Whereas we all know that you can bodgie up your recent sales. You can, you can have a conversation with the owner and put something lower on the agency agreement saying quote, lower. There's lots of ways around legislation in other states. But when you say when the vendors has will up, I'm limited in what I can set my reserve at to what you quote, then that sort of brings them into the party.

Veronica Morgan: So that's the first thing. But the second thing it reminds me of one of those hot auction shows from years ago when I was a selling agent. And there was his episode in Balmain Lindsey's house, it was a horrible house and it was a cave of a house, but it was a hot market. And at this, this hapless agent, and didn't last long in the industry and he's trying to sell these houses and there's these whole bunch of people out there on the balcony, the owner and their friends, you know, chatting about setting the reserve. And one of them, it was in Balmain and one of them says, oh, let's in Balmain. It's got to be where 700, his friends, random friend that comes from somewhere else. And at the end of it, after, after a demoralizing auction, that doesn't, it passes in and it doesn't get anywhere near 700. And the agents walking up the lane with these, with these signboard in his hand going, oh, another day in the paradise,

Jesse Davidson: Another store, I have one in Bankstown. This is, this was probably six, seven years ago now. And I turned up to this auction and there was a really good young agent who was a development site sandwich with a block of units of 24 units left side 24 units, right side, and a double housing block in the center now can imagine what probably is going to go up there. Now we went in there and I said the age, and I said, guys, what do you think it's worth? And he said, look, I think it's worth 3, 1 2. If we got three, four, we've done incredibly well. I said, have you got the reserve? And he said, mate, I haven't opened it yet, but I've got it. And I said, well, can I grab it? And it was 7.4 million.

Jesse Davidson: I walked into this. It was a lovely, great family. Honestly I've ever met. There was, there was about 15 of them there and they all had a say in the reserve. And I, hi guys, how are you? Great to see you. Thank you for the opportunity today. And I'll just ask one question. I said, guys, I've got to ask you, you guys don't want to sell today. Is that correct? And they said, no, no, no, of course we want to sell. And I said, so why should your reserve it double what we're expecting? And they said, oh, we just want control. So that's the frustrating part. And you discussed around what south Australia does. I think they're all very warranted points. And I think your consumer's point of view, you guys want clarity in terms of how it's going to go. But you know, it's always that, that seesawing effect of an owner who says, look, it's my asset. And if I want another 20 million, I can do what I want. And that's going to be a hard one to beat aside. I don't know how we're going to better it. And it's something to think about into the future. He said, don't blame the agent, but I just think, you know, a good agent potentially limits that happening. Right. So there may be, I would agree with that.

Chris Bates: There's a bit more skin in the game. You can force them to take with, you know, not waiving your marketing costs. So when they first called you and said, I can sell it for two, five. And you're like, instead of saying, that's unrealistic, you're saying maybe, yeah, we'll get it for you. That gets this. Let's have a try in the market. And maybe, maybe some of those conversations did or didn't happen.

Jesse Davidson: But yeah, he would let you know, last night's example, the Dumbo one that I mentioned before, he's actually probably one of the most experienced agents auction wise I deal with. And I think last night was an example that sometimes you just miss the mark sometimes read the situation and, and you know, you know, sometimes you also, you believe what you're told. I mean, we've got a kind of, as agents auctioneer's buyers' agents, we've kind of got to at some stage believe what we're being told. Right. So, yeah, it's difficult, but I understand the frustration from you. Guys' point of view. Certainly I get that

Veronica Morgan: Interesting stuff, Jesse, thanks so much for joining us. I'm really glad at short notice, because I suddenly thought, look, we need to do an episode on our options. We could be doing this for a few months yet. So thanks for joining us and giving us those insights.

Jesse Davidson: Beautiful. No worries at all. Thank you so much for the opportunity and stay safe out there to.

Chris Bates: Jesse. And don't go down to the RA and cause another outbreak. No, No, you guys, we want to make you a better elephant Rider. And this week's elephant rider training is

Veronica Morgan: Thinking about working with buyers agents. There was a one little thing that Jesse said very early on that I didn't pick him up on, but I just want to sort of correct at this point of time. And that was when they're selling to buyers agents that buyer's agents want to get a deal because their commission is riding on the sale. It's not always the case. There's certainly some that work that way, that they, their payment is contingent on a, on a purchase. And I would say that if you're looking at using a buyer's agent, be very careful about choosing a buyer's agent that does get paid in that way. I know in my business and many of the other buyer's agents that I know that are well-established and been working for a long time and a very good at what they do, that they will charge an engagement fee and they also charge a monthly retainer. And the reason for that, because you do not want someone who's getting hungry and they're starving and they needed a paycheck. And in order for them to get that paycheck, you need to buy, you want someone who's actually going to give you good advice throughout the whole process so that when you do your buy, you know, you haven't been pushed or rushed and there hasn't been a conflict of interest.

Veronica Morgan: Please join us for our next episode where a continuing the lockdown, special additions. And this time we're turning to Melbourne to get an understanding of how that property market has come out of lockdown, or I should say lockdown Xer and whether or not the Sydney market can look to that for some inspirational or some clues as to what might be for that market. Are we going to hit a COVID cliff after all? If you're looking to buy your dream home or an investment property in Sydney's inner west Eastern suburbs or north shore, my team, and I can help you by, without regrets, reach out by my website. Good deeds.com.edu. If you're looking to buy your first home, thinking of upgrading into a new one or purchasing an investment property anywhere in Australia, my team loved to carefully guide you on this journey. And most importantly, get the finance right, reach out via our website. [inaudible] Dot com today. Thanks for joining us. We'd love to see you again. And remember don't be a Dumbo.

Chris BatesJuly 26, 2021de-index

Episodes

Episode 186 | Online Auctions | Jesse Davidson, AuctionWorks